Hi Iolanda,

Thank you for this explanation, and also all the work all of you are doing for organizing this event. :)

I may have missed this: What is the process for stopping the membership at some point in the future? Do members have to stay as members for a minimum number of days/months/years?

Best, Leila

Leila Zia Research Scientist Wikimedia Foundation

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:44 AM, Iolanda Pensa iolanda@pensa.it wrote:

Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association managing Wikimania[1].

I’ll add the answers also online:

1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and

the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the appropriate institution). 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it. 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of the income to the expenses for the participants. 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in our team[2] 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the support for the most active volunteers) 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of the translations. 7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.

please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question iolanda

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#A... [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team

Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk" base-w@yandex.ru ha scritto:

...

Hello,

Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimani... It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as asked in Wikimania registration process.

Yours, --Base

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Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?

Thanks, Mike

On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa iolanda@pensa.it wrote:

Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association managing Wikimania[1].

I’ll add the answers also online:

1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the appropriate institution).
2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it.
3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of the income to the expenses for the participants.
4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in our team[2]
5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the support for the most active volunteers)
6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of the translations.
7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.

please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question iolanda

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#A... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#Accounting_and_bookkeeping [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team

...

Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk" <base-w@yandex.ru mailto:base-w@yandex.ru> ha scritto: Hello,

Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimani... https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016 It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as asked in Wikimania registration process.

Yours, --Base

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There are no other solutions.

Just to understand the logic behind it: If you go to the hilton you pay the hilton and you receive a receipt from this company. It is your decision if you are ok in paying that company and to use its service. In the case of Esino Lario you join an association, since we are not the hilton, we are not a company and we are managing the event with volunteers and a completely different structure to make a 761 village capable of hosting a quite large event without being structured to do so (we are literally creating most of the things from scratches). The aim of the association is to manage events and specifically Wikimania. Once the event is over the association will have 0 budget (used to cover with the income received from the registrations the expenses related to the members-participants); the association and the membership – as the name of the association clearly communicates - is meant for Wikimania 2016. A committee would have been an easier structure (we initially registered it as a committee) but this December 2015, in Italy committee do not exist any longer as registered institutions (but we want an officially registered institution to make everything clear and correct even if of course - as many of you know - it is complex and longer than doing things informally).

It would have been nice to have Wikimedia Italia managing all this, but in 2014 Wikimedia Italia decided that it was too complicated and they did not have enough staff to do it. So in Esino Lario we applied for fundings through Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (an association of volunteers without staff) and we established this new association to make the management and the accountability of Wikimania possible, transparent and correct (also in this case an association of volunteers without staff).

This choice was thought through and please do not hesitate to ask any further question. thanks iolanda

Il giorno 15 mar 2016, alle ore 22:29, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org ha scritto:

If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, such a solution would require all participants to become a member of Wikimedia Italia. Which is maybe less ideal than becoming member of something that is meant to be temporary.

Still it is an odd situation to be honest... Iolanda: are there solutions for people who don't want to become a member, or cannot become a member because of their job etc? Perhaps at a higher fee if necessary (not sure if this construction gives tax benefits etc)

Lodewijk

Lodewijk

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Michael Peel <email@mikepeel.net mailto:email@mikepeel.net> wrote: Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?

Thanks, Mike

...

On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa <iolanda@pensa.it mailto:iolanda@pensa.it> wrote:

Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association managing Wikimania[1].

I’ll add the answers also online:

1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the appropriate institution).
2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it.
3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of the income to the expenses for the participants.
4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in our team[2]
5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the support for the most active volunteers)
6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of the translations.
7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.

please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question iolanda

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#A... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#Accounting_and_bookkeeping [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team

...

Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk" <base-w@yandex.ru mailto:base-w@yandex.ru> ha scritto: Hello,

Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimani... https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimania_Esino_Lario_2016 It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as asked in Wikimania registration process.

Yours, --Base

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Iolanda, I can understand entirely that the group organizing Wikimania would need to set up an association in order for it to conduct business.

That does not explain why attendees are forced to join the association. Your comparison with the Hilton is very poor: I do not have to become a member of the Hilton in order to stay at the Hilton and pay them money.

The Wikimedia movement has succeeded without ever becoming a membership organization, without requiring registration, without expecting people to pay dues (even if that money is put back into the projects right away). Requiring people to join is almost the antithesis of what being Wikimedian is all about. Requiring membership can be a serious matter for people outside of Italy/Europe, particularly as the type and duration of membership is not properly described. Some governments and employers require reporting of *all* types of memberships - and those requirements tend to be in countries where such membership could put people at risk, or subject them to questioning. I am certain you can find a way to do this without requiring that attendees become members.

I have been finding myself very demotivated to come to this Wikimania - which is a pity, as I have been enthusiastic about the last four or five that I've attended, and even now three months from the event and with vacation days booked, I still can't bring myself to register. The choice of location, the inflexible and low quality of accommodations, the arbitrary decision to severely limit participation by WMF staff in the conference proper (without properly understanding that this is a major cost to the movement since so many developers will have to attend the hackathon beforehand in order for it to be successful), the decision to put emphasis on posters instead of presentations (despite the fact that well-presented posters usually cost between three and twenty times as much as a single-person presentation).... this does not seem like a Wikimedia event to me at all. Every time I start to feel even slightly enthusiastic, there's another thing that comes up.

I still can't bring myself to register.

Risker/Anne

On 16 March 2016 at 04:43, Iolanda Pensa iolanda@pensa.it wrote:

There are no other solutions.

Just to understand the logic behind it: If you go to the hilton you pay the hilton and you receive a receipt from this company. It is your decision if you are ok in paying that company and to use its service. In the case of Esino Lario you join an association, since we are not the hilton, we are not a company and we are managing the event with volunteers and a completely different structure to make a 761 village capable of hosting a quite large event without being structured to do so (we are literally creating most of the things from scratches). The aim of the association is to manage events and specifically Wikimania. Once the event is over the association will have 0 budget (used to cover with the income received from the registrations the expenses related to the members-participants); the association and the membership – as the name of the association clearly communicates - is meant for Wikimania 2016. A committee would have been an easier structure (we initially registered it as a committee) but this December 2015, in Italy committee do not exist any longer as registered institutions (but we want an officially registered institution to make everything clear and correct even if of course - as many of you know - it is complex and longer than doing things informally).

It would have been nice to have Wikimedia Italia managing all this, but in 2014 Wikimedia Italia decided that it was too complicated and they did not have enough staff to do it. So in Esino Lario we applied for fundings through Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (an association of volunteers without staff) and we established this new association to make the management and the accountability of Wikimania possible, transparent and correct (also in this case an association of volunteers without staff).

This choice was thought through and please do not hesitate to ask any further question. thanks iolanda

Il giorno 15 mar 2016, alle ore 22:29, Lodewijk < lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:

If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, such a solution would require all participants to become a member of Wikimedia Italia. Which is maybe less ideal than becoming member of something that is meant to be temporary.

Still it is an odd situation to be honest... Iolanda: are there solutions for people who don't want to become a member, or cannot become a member because of their job etc? Perhaps at a higher fee if necessary (not sure if this construction gives tax benefits etc)

Lodewijk

Lodewijk

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:

...

Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?

Thanks, Mike

On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa iolanda@pensa.it wrote:

Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association managing Wikimania[1].

I’ll add the answers also online:

1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and

the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the appropriate institution). 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it. 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of the income to the expenses for the participants. 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in our team[2] 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the support for the most active volunteers) 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of the translations. 7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.

please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question iolanda

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#A... [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team

Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk" base-w@yandex.ru ha scritto:

...

Hello,

Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimani... It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as asked in Wikimania registration process.

Yours, --Base

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Risker, 16/03/2016 13:34:

Requiring people to join is almost the antithesis of what being Wikimedian is all about.

No, it isn't. It's a standard practice that has no additional cost for the person and no obligation after Wikimania; in return you get a big bag of nice legal rights, such as asking about the association's budget, which in the past have just been a "courtesy". Furthering transparency is definitely not the antithesis of being a wikimedian.

Nemo

Hi,

2016-03-17 23:55 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:

Nemo, it's not standard practice. I've been to four or five wikimanias and never had to join an association to go there. I have never had to join an association to attend any other Wikimedia-related conference, session, or activity. The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of requirement to identify or create an account/membership to participate since day one of its existence. The budget of Wikimania should be published onwiki, it should be transparent (to use the current buzzword) to everyone, and nobody should have to pay money in order to find out its budget.

Before we get dragged too much into the philosophical question of what being Truly Wikimedian (TM) really means I would like to point out a little more of the context, with the disclaimer that: (1) I am not a lawyer and (2) I am not/was not part of the group that made the specific decision of setting up the association (3) I hope that Iolanda and the team can find a solution to accommodate any specific need.

Here some context:

(a) When you arrive in Italy if you stay for more than 48 hours, the person/organization hosting you (regardless of your citizenship, this applies to Italian citizens as well if they are staying in some place that is not their habitual residence) must communicate within 8 days your presence and your data to the local Questura (basically, the government branch managing the police force). This is why in all hotels, hostels, B&Bs and even in places such as AirBnB apartments you are usually asked to provide data such as your passport number. This is to say that the idea of lack of identification is understandable in general and easy to apply on the internet, but it is less so when you are staying somewhere.

(b) Setting up a company is more costly and complex than setting up an association, moreover there is no equivalent in Italy of the concept of "Public-benefit corporations". Setting up a Foundation is expensive as well. Futhermore, setting up a company excludes (as per the law) the possibility of accessing some facilitations that are provided to non-profit associations. Not secondarily, if you are a company basically it is assumed that all of your activities are meant to generate a profit even if you actually do not make one. So, you are basically required to pay taxes even if as a non-profit you can get an exemption.

(c) Related to (b) the Italian law makes a distinction between events that are (mainly? I am not sure) organized for the members of an associations and events that are (mainly) organized for the general public. In the former case the regulations are easier to fulfill.

As I said, I am sure that Iolanda and the team will look further into the matter and try to solve any issue that you may have. The general setting for which an association is needed, however, is the one presented above.

Ciao,

C

My own grain of salt as well

A few months ago, Wikimedia France was looking for an african wikipedian to facilitate an edit-a-thon in Africa as part of one of WM FR projects. Wikimedia France was supporting his travelling costs to the edit-a-thon place. A volunteer showed up, willing to do it. He lived in a nearby country.

When it came to reimburse his travel costs, Wikimedia France asked him to become a member of Wikimedia France to do so. The wikipedian was perplex about this request and asked me what I thought. I was perplex about this request as well and asked explanation. I got it and it really made sense to me.

The main argument is insurance. If an association "pays" (hire) a consultant/freelancer to facilitate an edit-a-thon, the person - as a professional - normally is covered by his own professionnal insurance. So if anything happens during the edit-a-thon, his insurance will cover this. But if the person providing the training is a volunteer, it is VERY likely that he has no insurance to cover anything that might happen. A personal insurance would probably not cover the situation. Only a professional insurance could. If the trainer is not covered and something happen, since the event is organized by Wikimedia France, the "victim" would turn toward Wikimedia France.

Of course Wikimedia France has an insurance but the insurance needs to be bordered. It can not cover anything, anyone, in all situations. And one of the easiest border is... membership. A contract can be drawn that covers members whilst they are participating to an event organized by Wikimedia France. A contract that would cover what could happen to anyone showing up at an event organized by Wikimedia France is a different story.

So the best way recommanded by interested parties and councillors is that any person reimbursed for an action done as part of Wikimedia France activities should be a member of the association. As such, he is covered by Wikimedia France insurance.

Risker statement "The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of requirement to identify or create an account/membership to participate since day one of its existence." is actually... not correct. A lot of the activity of the Wikimedia mouvement go through participation to a User Group or a Wikimedia Chapter or various Thematic Organisations. And identification and joining as member are actually required in those cases. Also... identification is also required to join various online "tasks forces" such as steward or OTRS agent.

Flo

Le 18/03/16 09:48, Gabriel Thullen a écrit :

I will add my grain of salt to this discussion. When I was young, and I was traveling a lot, I would stay in Youth Hostels. Membership was mandatory. Things have changed a bit, Youth Hostels now call themselves "Hostelling International" and in most places membership is no longer mandatory. But members (of any national organization) get all sorts of discounts and other perks.

I do not understand what the problem is if a membership is required in order to attend Wikimania. Does anybody have a Real Life example where such a membership has posed a problem ? Or are we just kibitzing to pass the time until June ?

Gabe

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Cristian Consonni <kikkocristian@gmail.com mailto:kikkocristian@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

2016-03-17 23:55 GMT+01:00 Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com
<mailto:risker.wp@gmail.com>>:
> Nemo, it's not standard practice. I've been to four or five
wikimanias and
> never had to join an association to go there. I have never had
to join an
> association to attend any other Wikimedia-related conference,
session, or
> activity. The Wikimedia movement has openly embraced the lack of
requirement
> to identify or create an account/membership to participate since
day one of
> its existence.  The budget of Wikimania should be published
onwiki, it
> should be transparent (to use the current buzzword) to everyone,
and nobody
> should have to pay money in order to find out its budget.

Before we get dragged too much into the philosophical question of what
being Truly Wikimedian (TM) really means I would like to point out a
little more of the context, with the disclaimer that: (1) I am not a
lawyer and (2) I am not/was not part of the group that made the
specific decision of setting up the association (3) I hope that
Iolanda and the team can find a solution to accommodate any specific
need.

Here some context:

(a) When you arrive in Italy if you stay for more than 48 hours, the
person/organization hosting you (regardless of your citizenship, this
applies to Italian citizens as well if they are staying in some place
that is not their habitual residence) must communicate within 8 days
your presence and your data to the local Questura (basically, the
government branch managing the police force). This is why in all
hotels, hostels, B&Bs and even in places such as AirBnB apartments you
are usually asked to provide data such as your passport number. This
is to say that the idea of lack of identification is understandable in
general and easy to apply on the internet, but it is less so when you
are staying somewhere.

(b) Setting up a company is more costly and complex than setting up an
association, moreover there is no equivalent in Italy of the concept
of "Public-benefit corporations". Setting up a Foundation is expensive
as well. Futhermore, setting up a company excludes (as per the law)
the possibility of accessing some facilitations that are provided to
non-profit associations. Not secondarily, if you are a company
basically it is assumed that all of your activities are meant to
generate a profit even if you actually do not make one. So, you are
basically required to pay taxes even if as a non-profit you can get an
exemption.

(c) Related to (b) the Italian law makes a distinction between events
that are (mainly? I am not sure) organized for the members of an
associations and events that are (mainly) organized for the general
public. In the former case the regulations are easier to fulfill.

As I said, I am sure that Iolanda and the team will look further into
the matter and try to solve any issue that you may have. The general
setting for which an association is needed, however, is the one
presented above.

Ciao,

C

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Bohdan Melnychuk, 26/03/2016 20:50:

That being said, what pops into my mind as a not-far-past large Wikimedia event in Italy is the Wikimedia Conference which was held in Milan a couple of years ago — was there the same model being used? If not, how did they do it?

That's an entirely different model, for instance it's entirely paid by attending organisations rather than individuals. Anyway, Wikimedia Italia is an asociazione di promozione sociale (APS) which has way less legal restrictions than the Wikimania 2016 fiscal sponsor (ONLUS).

Please do translate the documents as fast as possible. Not being able to read them is the thing which prevents me to fill the registration, and that is a major bottleneck for me. I see that some work has already started on Wikimania 2016 wiki: https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Associazione_Comitato_Wikimania_Esi... https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Informativa_per_la_privacy_dei_volo... , but it really needs to be finished ASAP.

These are really standard documents, they say almost nothing that is not already written in the law. The only interesting articles are 3 and 21 in the bylaws, would you be happier if I translated those?

Sadly, I also cannot stop myself from voicing a thought which is not helpful in any way when the situation is as it is already, but it could be something to lessons learnt section of it all, in my opinion. I do believe that such circumstances as compulsory enlisting of, I guess, 1000+ people into an NGO as a prerequisite of running the event is not something to omit while the very bidding process.

I certainly agree. Considering that the law changed on December 2015, that's hardly something to blame on the organisers. I cannot be more ashamed of my own national parliament and I hope for national sovereignities to be disbanded as soon as possible in the EU, but that's quite far on the horizon.

Nemo

On 26 Mar 2016, at 22:06, Bohdan Melnychuk base-w@yandex.ru wrote:

Erm, Italian law you mean? Unfortunately and unsurprisingly, I am unfamiliar with it, so it is wonderful that the Statute duplicates the important parts of it. I would definitely be happier for having at least something translated, but I still insist on everything being available in English. This might be troublesome for you, but that's just what has to be done.

--Base

Also in German, please. And Korean (North and South, separate translations!)....

Stephan

-- -------------------------- It can be done! --------------------------------- Please email me as schulz@eprover.org (Stephan Schulz) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bohdan Melnychuk, 26/03/2016 22:06:

Erm, Italian law you mean? Unfortunately and unsurprisingly, I am unfamiliar with it

So you will ask for a translation of the entire Italian legislation at the airport before passing the gate?

I still don't think we've received a good answer to the question of whether this is a membership in perpetuity or it is a time-limited membership

Time-limited membership is forbidden by the law, IIRC. "Membership in perpetuity" also doesn't exist for any common definition of "perpetuity". One is member until * the association is disbanded, or * the member leaves, or * the member qualifies for automatic reasons (e.g. death), or * the member is expelled.

Nemo

dear Joe and all

Il giorno 27 mar 2016, alle ore 15:59, Joseph Fox josephfoxwiki@gmail.com ha scritto:

So I think the question is: will the association be disbanded come the end of Wikimania? Or do members have to formally request to leave on June 27?

Before closing the association we will obviously close the budget; it would not be correct to disband the association without ending the fiscal year. The membership is for one year (2016) and anyone can leave the association earlier than 31 December 2016 anytime. iolanda

Joe

On Sunday, 27 March 2016, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote: Bohdan Melnychuk, 26/03/2016 22:06: Erm, Italian law you mean? Unfortunately and unsurprisingly, I am unfamiliar with it

So you will ask for a translation of the entire Italian legislation at the airport before passing the gate?

...

I still don't think we've received a good answer to the question of whether this is a membership in perpetuity or it is a time-limited membership

Time-limited membership is forbidden by the law, IIRC. "Membership in perpetuity" also doesn't exist for any common definition of "perpetuity". One is member until

• the association is disbanded, or
• the member leaves, or
• the member qualifies for automatic reasons (e.g. death), or
• the member is expelled.

Nemo

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Hi Iolanda,

As also indicated by others, I don't see the overlap with staying at the Hilton. Joining an association involves also signing up with the bylaws, which is a whole extra set of lines of text to agree to (there are already 3 or 4 other sets of disclaimers I have to agree with) - even in a language I don't speak. It means I join a legal person, which may or may not make me liable (I don't know Italian law), which may or may not mean I have to declare it with an employer etc. It has real world implications. It makes me somewhat jointly responsible for the Wikimania budget.

While I don't like it per se, I can live with it being the default. My question was though, is it possible to make an exception when people have reasons not to want to join the association. If they foresee problems in their specific circumstance, can they email someone and get an exception?

I can see why you want to have an association. I can see why you may want people to join it. I don't see why /everyone/ must join it.

Lodewijk

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Iolanda Pensa iolanda@pensa.it wrote:

There are no other solutions.

Just to understand the logic behind it: If you go to the hilton you pay the hilton and you receive a receipt from this company. It is your decision if you are ok in paying that company and to use its service. In the case of Esino Lario you join an association, since we are not the hilton, we are not a company and we are managing the event with volunteers and a completely different structure to make a 761 village capable of hosting a quite large event without being structured to do so (we are literally creating most of the things from scratches). The aim of the association is to manage events and specifically Wikimania. Once the event is over the association will have 0 budget (used to cover with the income received from the registrations the expenses related to the members-participants); the association and the membership – as the name of the association clearly communicates - is meant for Wikimania 2016. A committee would have been an easier structure (we initially registered it as a committee) but this December 2015, in Italy committee do not exist any longer as registered institutions (but we want an officially registered institution to make everything clear and correct even if of course - as many of you know - it is complex and longer than doing things informally).

It would have been nice to have Wikimedia Italia managing all this, but in 2014 Wikimedia Italia decided that it was too complicated and they did not have enough staff to do it. So in Esino Lario we applied for fundings through Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (an association of volunteers without staff) and we established this new association to make the management and the accountability of Wikimania possible, transparent and correct (also in this case an association of volunteers without staff).

This choice was thought through and please do not hesitate to ask any further question. thanks iolanda

Il giorno 15 mar 2016, alle ore 22:29, Lodewijk < lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:

If membership is required to be a participant under this structure, such a solution would require all participants to become a member of Wikimedia Italia. Which is maybe less ideal than becoming member of something that is meant to be temporary.

Still it is an odd situation to be honest... Iolanda: are there solutions for people who don't want to become a member, or cannot become a member because of their job etc? Perhaps at a higher fee if necessary (not sure if this construction gives tax benefits etc)

Lodewijk

Lodewijk

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:

...

Couldn't Wikimedia Italia do this?

Thanks, Mike

On 15 Mar 2016, at 11:44, Iolanda Pensa iolanda@pensa.it wrote:

Here is the explanation of why we created a Committee which is an association managing Wikimania[1].

I’ll add the answers also online:

1. we needed an institution managing the income from the registration and

the expenses which involve a very large number of people (priviate, not only companies); the institution we established is a non profit (it doesn’t share the income among anyone), it is managed by volunteers with experience in accounting and it is a specific institution with a separate bank account from Associazione Amici del Museo delle Grigne Onlus (which as an onlus is not the appropriate institution). 2. we created an association according to the advice of experts in associations and management. since we have a non profit nature, associating the participants for the event is the solution which has been chosen as the only suitable to allow us to collect the payments and to reimburse the flats and to pay the other expenses linked to food, accommodation, transport, insurance and t-shirts and welcome begs. the association (committees in Italy do not exist since December 2015) has the specific objective to promote and organize the event Wikimania (the name of the association is Associazione Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016), which is also the reason we created it. 3. the fee is 1 euro because we need to have a fee and it is of course included in all the registration; fees simply contribute as all the rest of the income to the expenses for the participants. 4. you can see the names of the members of the board in the link and also in our team[2] 5. yesterday the association had a meeting to record all the regulations which coincide with the information you find on the website (different types of registration costs and i am uploading also the regulations related to the support for the most active volunteers) 6. all documents of the association are uploaded online and you can review everything. i’ll be adding the other documents and we are preparing some of the translations. 7. for personal data we apply the Italian legislation. Data are collected to allow us to organize Wikimania and support the participants (registration, accommodation, wifi, police registration for foreigners requested by law); with this objective in mind, only people who need the data to organize Wikimania and support the participants have access to them.

please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any further question iolanda

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_bids/Esino_Lario/Management#A... [2] https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Team

Il 13 mar 2016 23:40, "Bohdan Melnychuk" base-w@yandex.ru ha scritto:

...

Hello,

Please take a look at the discussion I initiate here: https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration#Comitato_Wikimani... It is about becoming a member of Comitato Wikimania Esino Lario 2016 as asked in Wikimania registration process.

Yours, --Base

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