Foto upload by email? - WikiLovesMonuments

Maarten Dammers

8 May 8 May

8:06 p.m.

Hi Jane, Op 8-5-2012 16:14, Jane Darnell schreef:

Hello, I was wondering if we could get around the problem of all the native mobile apps by allowing mobile users to upload photos by email. I am thinking of an email with a photo attached or pasted in the body of the message, accompanied by text in the subject line or body of the form: username:jane023 password:**** {{en|Duinlustweg 16 Overveen, Bloemendaal, the Netherlands. Next to park "Middenduin".}} {{Rijksmonument|514778}} [[Category:Bloemendaal]]

That's a security nightmare.

...

You need the commons user login details, and the basic description and unique identifier. The default date is the date of the email or the photo date, but it could be optional to include category data if the user is enough of a commons user to determine this. So the last line in the above example could be optional.

I would opt for using a shared bot account. You would need some sort of system to get your own personal emailadress <somestrangecode>(a)submit.wikilovesmonuments.org . This would have a bot upload the image for you and leave a note on your talk page so you can find it back later on.

...

Someone would need to set up a mail server that can auto-reply with a failure message or confirmation upload link. Is this possible? It could save people having to hassle with various mobile application SDK's. It could also be handy for people to reuse their messages as a template, if they take 10 or more photos of the same object with different angles. The mail parser would need to create a file title based off the description given.

Making a prototype shouldn't be too hard. Implementing all the features might be a bit more difficult. Maarten

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Jane _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

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Nuno Tavares

11:27 p.m.

What I think is worth noting is that the e-mail is simple to integrate with, and would allow the whole ecosystem to use it as a "bridge": any site, any mobile app, any whatever, could upload photos easily by just sending a simple e-mail. This applies for webservices as well, but while in the former you'd just send an e-mail (encrypted or not), with (any kind of) webservices you'd have to develop the "consumer" - for every application. The worst part of this is that I can't imagine any of this without the user sharing his credentials - I'd rather let the user login to WLM site and fill in appropriate info (Commons user and password, email, etc) but then again we would be leaving the user away from Commons - and this is a separate and old discussion - and hide (from us) important statistics, IMO, such as if it is a new user, upload counters, etc. -NT Em 08-05-2012 20:29, Jane Darnell escreveu:

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Hi Maarten, I thought about the security issue, but especially for new users, they probably don't care about security and are more concerned about losing their password, and keeping it in the email may help them upload a second time. Another alternative could be to somehow let them mail a bunch of photos and keep them in a queue so that when they logon, the upload requests get executed. A bot account might work for that, if it sends a confirmation link for the user to click on for the logon page. Jane On 8 mei 2012, at 20:06, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl <mailto:maarten@mdammers.nl>> wrote:

Hi Jane, Op 8-5-2012 16:14, Jane Darnell schreef:

Hello, I was wondering if we could get around the problem of all the native mobile apps by allowing mobile users to upload photos by email. I am thinking of an email with a photo attached or pasted in the body of the message, accompanied by text in the subject line or body of the form: username:jane023 password:**** {{en|Duinlustweg 16 Overveen, Bloemendaal, the Netherlands. Next to park "Middenduin".}} {{Rijksmonument|514778}} [[Category:Bloemendaal]]

That's a security nightmare.

You need the commons user login details, and the basic description and unique identifier. The default date is the date of the email or the photo date, but it could be optional to include category data if the user is enough of a commons user to determine this. So the last line in the above example could be optional.

I would opt for using a shared bot account. You would need some sort of system to get your own personal emailadress <somestrangecode>(a)submit.wikilovesmonuments.org . This would have a bot upload the image for you and leave a note on your talk page so you can find it back later on.

Someone would need to set up a mail server that can auto-reply with a failure message or confirmation upload link. Is this possible? It could save people having to hassle with various mobile application SDK's. It could also be handy for people to reuse their messages as a template, if they take 10 or more photos of the same object with different angles. The mail parser would need to create a file title based off the description given.

Making a prototype shouldn't be too hard. Implementing all the features might be a bit more difficult. Maarten

Jane _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

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Jane Darnell

8:59 a.m.

Hmm. So basically the issue is security. Maybe Commons could have a "mobile upload key" that you could obtain by typing in your credentials? That key could then be parsed by the mail server. Just a thought over coffee... Jane On 9 mei 2012, at 00:38, Nuno Tavares <nuno.tavares(a)wikimedia.pt> wrote:

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Ermm, excuse me, "and hide (from us)" should be read "othewise it would hide (from us)" -NT Em 08-05-2012 22:27, Nuno Tavares escreveu:

What I think is worth noting is that the e-mail is simple to integrate with, and would allow the whole ecosystem to use it as a "bridge": any site, any mobile app, any whatever, could upload photos easily by just sending a simple e-mail. This applies for webservices as well, but while in the former you'd just send an e-mail (encrypted or not), with (any kind of) webservices you'd have to develop the "consumer" - for every application. The worst part of this is that I can't imagine any of this without the user sharing his credentials - I'd rather let the user login to WLM site and fill in appropriate info (Commons user and password, email, etc) but then again we would be leaving the user away from Commons - and this is a separate and old discussion - and hide (from us) important statistics, IMO, such as if it is a new user, upload counters, etc. -NT Em 08-05-2012 20:29, Jane Darnell escreveu:

Hi Maarten, I thought about the security issue, but especially for new users, they probably don't care about security and are more concerned about losing their password, and keeping it in the email may help them upload a second time. Another alternative could be to somehow let them mail a bunch of photos and keep them in a queue so that when they logon, the upload requests get executed. A bot account might work for that, if it sends a confirmation link for the user to click on for the logon page. Jane On 8 mei 2012, at 20:06, Maarten Dammers <maarten(a)mdammers.nl <mailto:maarten@mdammers.nl>> wrote:

Hi Jane, Op 8-5-2012 16:14, Jane Darnell schreef: > Hello, > I was wondering if we could get around the problem of all the native > mobile apps by allowing mobile users to upload photos by email. I am > thinking of an email with a photo attached or pasted in the body of > the message, accompanied by text in the subject line or body of the > form: > username:jane023 > password:**** > {{en|Duinlustweg 16 Overveen, Bloemendaal, the Netherlands. Next to > park "Middenduin".}} > {{Rijksmonument|514778}} > [[Category:Bloemendaal]] That's a security nightmare. > You need the commons user login details, and the basic description > and unique identifier. The default date is the date of the email or > the photo date, but it could be optional to include category data if > the user is enough of a commons user to determine this. So the last > line in the above example could be optional. I would opt for using a shared bot account. You would need some sort of system to get your own personal emailadress <somestrangecode>(a)submit.wikilovesmonuments.org . This would have a bot upload the image for you and leave a note on your talk page so you can find it back later on. > Someone would need to set up a mail server that can auto-reply with a > failure message or confirmation upload link. > Is this possible? It could save people having to hassle with various > mobile application SDK's. It could also be handy for people to reuse > their messages as a template, if they take 10 or more photos of the > same object with different angles. The mail parser would need to > create a file title based off the description given. Making a prototype shouldn't be too hard. Implementing all the features might be a bit more difficult. Maarten > Jane > > > _______________________________________________ > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list > WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

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Jeremy Baron

9:13 a.m.

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod(a)mccme.ru> wrote:

...

On Wed, 9 May 2012 08:59:27 +0200, Jane Darnell wrote:

Hmm. So basically the issue is security. Maybe Commons could have a "mobile upload key" that you could obtain by typing in your credentials? That key could then be parsed by the mail server. Just a thought over coffee... Jane

I guess this can be solved if e-mails are sent to OTRS, but I am not sure we have enough OTRS capacity to handle this, even for a month. May be uploading to Flickr first is just plain easier.

ugh, no. The solution is making the WLM upload bot use OAuth. (and getting OAuth support on the WMF cluster) You can also add a feature to allow uploading from the official Wikipedia app on Android/iPhone. (and so bypass the bot) http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/OAuth <-- writeup from November that hasn't changed much since http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/OAuth/User_stories <-- newer page to collect use cases for how people would use the feature if implemented. (I guess to decide how much paid dev attention to give it and when) http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-April/060379.html <-- recent discussion -Jeremy

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Platonides

10:19 a.m.

What about, you send the photo to upload(a)wikilovesmonuments.org (one email address, easy to publish) Then, after N minutes (30? 60?) without sending us a photo, we reply saying: You have 4 photos queued for upload. Please visit when you have time http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/upload-queue/bc781acb3c8d4ab39461675feabb… in order to finish the upload. And we query all the details there. We expect them to be logged into commons and have javascript enabled. The low-level transfer could happen through Upload by url (whitelisting wikilovesmonuments.org).

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Jane Darnell

9:16 a.m.

It's interesting to read here that Flickr already has something like this with an upload key. I wonder how secure that is? When it comes down to it, I think only experienced Wikipedians really care if their Commons passwords get compromised. After all, new users just get a thrill of seeing their photo added to the competition. I wonder if any of them have ever noticed their pictures even get used in the lists? I totally agree that the mobile upload function needs to be on Commons, so people will become Commons members and not anything else. Now I have an additional idea, namely this, that we allow mobile upload users to ONLY use the {{own}} attribution. This way even if the passwords get compromised, the damage can't be that bad and will always be easily traceable. Jane 2012/5/10 Nuno Tavares <nuno.tavares(a)wikimedia.pt>

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I really liked this idea, very much, if feasible. I just don't like the number of steps... I may be the last tech guy in the world with no fancy cell phone/PDA/Tablet, so I don't know.... but aren't those ISP plans billed by traffic usage? I mean, wouldn't it be more "costly" to send the photos by e-mail and - still - have to go to a site to finish the submissions? -- Nuno Tavares Wikimedia Portugal http://www.wikimedia.pt Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer. Participe também: http://www.wikimedia.pt Em 09-05-2012 09:19, Platonides escreveu:

What about, you send the photo to upload(a)wikilovesmonuments.org (one email address, easy to publish) Then, after N minutes (30? 60?) without sending us a photo, we reply

saying:

You have 4 photos queued for upload. Please visit when you have time

http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/upload-queue/bc781acb3c8d4ab39461675feabb…

in order to finish the upload. And we query all the details there. We expect them to be logged into commons and have javascript enabled. The low-level transfer could happen through Upload by url (whitelisting wikilovesmonuments.org). _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

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Chris Steipp

11 May 11 May

2:29 a.m.

Jaremy / WLM, We definitely want to discourage the emailing around of passwords! It is a violation of our TOU [1], and a bad idea in general. I'm heading up the OAuth development effort currently. We're in the planning phase right now, but plan to have it implemented this summer. This is what many sites (including Flickr) have implemented to allow their users to grant another application access to a certain function, but not share full access to their account. The OAuth token is like a valet key-- it only allows the application to perform particular functions (like upload a file) on your behalf, and it can be revoked at any time. I hate to stifle innovation-- hopefully it can either wait until we get oauth finished, or we can find another way. Chris [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use_(2012)/en#5._Password_Secu… On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy(a)tuxmachine.com>wrote;wrote:

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Hi Jane, [note, all my uses of "password" below refer to the primary or most privileged password for a given username/website combination] On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:16 AM, Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It's interesting to read here that Flickr already has something like this with an upload key. I wonder how secure that is?

That's akin to an API key, not a password. Very likely can't be used by HTTP and can't be used to log in to their account. It mitigates or maybe eliminates the risk of the user losing control of their account or leaking details from what's already stored on their account. (e.g. private pics or profile details. assuming the email interface is write only, no read interface provided) Email is not secure. period. end of story. no need to discuss any further. (let's assume the lowest common denominator. there's a lot of poorly configured MTAs out there) If it's something that would be very bad to leak (or even something a little bad if you can manage to deliver it some other way) then email should not be used. (or should be limited somehow)

When it comes down to it, I think only experienced Wikipedians really care if their Commons passwords get compromised.

I'm ~99.996% against any possibility of supporting cleartext password authentication by sending emails. Also, If this were done by WLM (rather than as a service run by the WMF directly) then I think it would be a violation of the WMF TOS (or the new TOU). But that needs double checking. IMHO, any thoughts of transmitting cleartext passwords by email idea needs to be killed and buried and never mentioned again. Surely there are other approaches to authentication/attribution (I've even proposed some myself in the WLM IRC channel and other people there have commented about it too), let's make some other way work. -Jeremy

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