Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way there.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
does
a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
understand
the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
late
to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
specific
municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
to
the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
seen
each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
learned
from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
have
picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
WMF
staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wi...
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page rather than some other way.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds < richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way there.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama.
The
copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
does
a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow
freedom
of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
understand
the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
late
to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
specific
municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is,
according to
the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something.
In this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
seen
each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
learned
from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
have
picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with
what
you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com
:
Hi Romaine,
> And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The
Italian
WLM > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia > Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact.
I
know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
WMF
staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if
Autumn
has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wi...
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Jane Darnell, 24/08/2015 13:28:
Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if we COULD measure this.
We know that WLM-IT newcomers are as many as in the other editions or more. Participants do not have to know anything more than in other countries, the difficulty is only in physically reaching the authorised monuments because there are slight chances there is one in your town.
Nemo
Dear Jane, Richard, et al.
We measured this in the 2013 participants’ survey: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/WLM2013_Frequencies_and_...
Italy:
- 49% of WLM participants were new to Wikimedia projects (average across all countries: 45%)
- 9% were not new, but had only participated in other photo contests before (avg. across all countries: 6%)
Thus, Italy was slightly above average in attracting new users with their WLM contest.
Our data also show that the site notice effect is indeed not negligible at all: 60% of all participants found out about WLM through the banners on Wikipedia or other Wikipedia projects. The second most important channel concerned only 21% of participants who said that they were a “member of the organizing team / organization”, followed by “I just remembered from last year” (17%) ; social media (16%); “Somebody I know told me about the competition (10%).
So you would probably lose about half of your participants (mostly new contributors) if you didn’t have banners at all. Whether you would also lose half of the contributions is a completely different story, as people tend to contribute with varying intensity. I didn’t look into this. Also, it’s not so clear how to ponder quantity against quality…
Cheers, Beat
From: wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jane Darnell Sent: Montag, 24. August 2015 13:29 To: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page rather than some other way.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds <richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.ukmailto:richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote: I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way there.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.
On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.commailto:jane023@gmail.com> wrote: I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.commailto:romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.commailto:jane023@gmail.com>:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.commailto:romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.commailto:chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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That is indeed very interesting, so thanks for posting! I wasn't actually talking about that measurement however. I was wondering if it was possible to catch the number of uploads using the specific easy upload link from a Wikipedia page, rather than one from a WLM website (which is where the banner takes you). So for example I know that in the Dutch Wikipedia, the "easy upload link" is only available in September and is used on certain Wikipedia pages (mostly the monuments lists). If most of the uploads that come through are coming from these pages, then the effect of the banner may not be as great as we think.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Estermann Beat beat.estermann@bfh.ch wrote:
Dear Jane, Richard, et al.
We measured this in the 2013 participants’ survey:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/WLM2013_Frequencies_and_...
Italy:
49% of WLM participants were new to Wikimedia projects(average across all countries: 45%)
9% were not new, but had only participated in other photocontests before (avg. across all countries: 6%)
Thus, Italy was slightly above average in attracting new users with their WLM contest.
Our data also show that the site notice effect is indeed not negligible at all: 60% of all participants found out about WLM through the banners on Wikipedia or other Wikipedia projects. The second most important channel concerned only 21% of participants who said that they were a “member of the organizing team / organization”, followed by “I just remembered from last year” (17%) ; social media (16%); “Somebody I know told me about the competition (10%).
So you would probably lose about half of your participants (mostly new contributors) if you didn’t have banners at all. Whether you would also lose half of the contributions is a completely different story, as people tend to contribute with varying intensity. I didn’t look into this. Also, it’s not so clear how to ponder quantity against quality…
Cheers,
Beat
*From:* wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Jane Darnell *Sent:* Montag, 24. August 2015 13:29 *To:* Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition *Cc:* Wikimedia Mailing List *Subject:* Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page rather than some other way.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds < richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way there.
Richard Symonds
Wikimedia UK
0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
does
a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
understand
the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
late
to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
specific
municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
to
the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
seen
each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
learned
from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
have
picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
WMF
staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wi...
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Hi Jane,
I’m not aware of the different setups of the lists in the various countries (I think easy upload is working for the Swiss monuments lists all year round), but I would expect the banner to have an effect primarily on the awareness of potential participants of the contest. Once you have taken your pictures in view of the contest you’ll probably find your way to upload them without the particular banner… (but you may forget to do so if the banner doesn’t remind you that the contest only lasts until the end of September).
Cheers, Beat
From: wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jane Darnell Sent: Montag, 24. August 2015 14:39 To: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
That is indeed very interesting, so thanks for posting! I wasn't actually talking about that measurement however. I was wondering if it was possible to catch the number of uploads using the specific easy upload link from a Wikipedia page, rather than one from a WLM website (which is where the banner takes you). So for example I know that in the Dutch Wikipedia, the "easy upload link" is only available in September and is used on certain Wikipedia pages (mostly the monuments lists). If most of the uploads that come through are coming from these pages, then the effect of the banner may not be as great as we think.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Estermann Beat <beat.estermann@bfh.chmailto:beat.estermann@bfh.ch> wrote: Dear Jane, Richard, et al.
We measured this in the 2013 participants’ survey: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/WLM2013_Frequencies_and_...
Italy:
- 49% of WLM participants were new to Wikimedia projects (average across all countries: 45%)
- 9% were not new, but had only participated in other photo contests before (avg. across all countries: 6%)
Thus, Italy was slightly above average in attracting new users with their WLM contest.
Our data also show that the site notice effect is indeed not negligible at all: 60% of all participants found out about WLM through the banners on Wikipedia or other Wikipedia projects. The second most important channel concerned only 21% of participants who said that they were a “member of the organizing team / organization”, followed by “I just remembered from last year” (17%) ; social media (16%); “Somebody I know told me about the competition (10%).
So you would probably lose about half of your participants (mostly new contributors) if you didn’t have banners at all. Whether you would also lose half of the contributions is a completely different story, as people tend to contribute with varying intensity. I didn’t look into this. Also, it’s not so clear how to ponder quantity against quality…
Cheers, Beat
From: wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jane Darnell Sent: Montag, 24. August 2015 13:29 To: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page rather than some other way.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds <richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.ukmailto:richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote: I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way there.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.
On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.commailto:jane023@gmail.com> wrote: I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.commailto:romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.commailto:jane023@gmail.com>:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.commailto:romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.commailto:chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hi Jane,
The situation is more complicated for the organisers, yes. But for participants in the contest it is not complicated. The Italian WLM team has organised it in such way it is easy to participate.
Greetings, Romaine
2015-08-24 13:08 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team
does
a great job in getting all the permissions.
You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.
Romaine
2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to
understand
the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was
late
to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only
specific
municipalities that take part now.
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according
to
the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In
this
case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.
You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have
seen
each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have
learned
from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.
And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all
countries
are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy
tales.
This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in
all
the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they
have
picked the worst possible country.
You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.
Romaine
2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com:
Hi Romaine,
And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian
WLM
team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the
Wikimedia
Foundation.
Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with
WMF
staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case).
But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at
all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get
what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.
Regards,
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wi...
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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