I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jane,
Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does a great job in getting all the permissions.

You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht.

Romaine

2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com>:
Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing.
I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not.

You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate.

And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country.

You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case.

Romaine

2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>:
Hi Romaine,

> And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM
> team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia
> Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I
understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know
from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF
staff  how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM
will be less than you expect in this case).

But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with
what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all
and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has
the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always
be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what
they want. No number of emotive emails will change that.

Regards,

Chris
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