Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
Hi Xelgen,
last year we had a few of those situations (on the border between two countries, i.e. Estonia/Russia). It is not very common though, and I expect also this year it will be an exception.
Last year the bots etc didn't explode, but they might just skip part of the categorization (for example, only consider the first template they see, or the last one). You may have to do a little more manual work in those cases.
The voting tool is based on category input, so as long as you put it in the right country categories, it should work.
Lodewijk (not very technical, so just explaining to the extent he thinks to understand)
2013/9/16 Aleksey Chalabyan xelgen.am@gmail.com
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi Aleksey,
Op 16-9-2013 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan schreef:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
For the tools under https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Monuments_database it's no problem, moving templates on the other hand, does break the bot. I just reverted the move of https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Cultural_Heritage_Armenia
It looks like the people from Armenia and Azerbaijan are removing templates (already dubbed the lamest edit war ever on the admin's noticeboard). I'll issue this warning to get this over with: Any user caught removing templates Armenia and/or Azerbaijan will get blocked.
Maarten
I'm guessing this is about the Nagorno-Kabarakh region, which is by some considered to be an independent republic, and by some part of Azerbaijan.
Please note: WLM is based on the monument definitions. If two countries recognized a building as monument, we use both recognitions, it is in both lists and the picture can participate in both contests. There is no need to /choose/ one. There might be a few slight technical inconveniences, but that shouldn't be a reason to start reverting each other or removing templates.
Lodewijk
2013/9/16 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi Aleksey,
Op 16-9-2013 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan schreef:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM
contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
For the tools under https://commons.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Commons:Monuments_**databasehttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Monuments_databaseit's no problem, moving templates on the other hand, does break the bot. I just reverted the move of https://commons.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Template:Cultural_**Heritage_Armeniahttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Cultural_Heritage_Armenia
It looks like the people from Armenia and Azerbaijan are removing templates (already dubbed the lamest edit war ever on the admin's noticeboard). I'll issue this warning to get this over with: Any user caught removing templates Armenia and/or Azerbaijan will get blocked.
Maarten
______________________________**_________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.**wikimedia.orgWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/**wikilovesmonumentshttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.**org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I have now given that image both templates and both sets of categories, which promptly caused a warning from Multichill :-)
regards, Ole
On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.orgwrote:
I'm guessing this is about the Nagorno-Kabarakh region, which is by some considered to be an independent republic, and by some part of Azerbaijan.
Please note: WLM is based on the monument definitions. If two countries recognized a building as monument, we use both recognitions, it is in both lists and the picture can participate in both contests. There is no need to /choose/ one. There might be a few slight technical inconveniences, but that shouldn't be a reason to start reverting each other or removing templates.
Lodewijk
2013/9/16 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl
Hi Aleksey,
Op 16-9-2013 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan schreef:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM
contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
For the tools under https://commons.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Commons:Monuments_**databasehttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Monuments_databaseit's no problem, moving templates on the other hand, does break the bot. I just reverted the move of https://commons.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Template:Cultural_**Heritage_Armeniahttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Cultural_Heritage_Armenia
It looks like the people from Armenia and Azerbaijan are removing templates (already dubbed the lamest edit war ever on the admin's noticeboard). I'll issue this warning to get this over with: Any user caught removing templates Armenia and/or Azerbaijan will get blocked.
Maarten
______________________________**_________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.**wikimedia.orgWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/**wikilovesmonumentshttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.**org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi Ole,
Op 16-9-2013 19:02, Ole Palnatoke Andersen schreef:
I have now given that image both templates and both sets of categories, which promptly caused a warning from Multichill :-)
It's only a warning for the people who think about removing something ;-) This really got out of hand with a few users, see: * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChangesLinked&... * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChangesLinked&...
Let's see if people can get productive again. I only said templates, but maybe I've should have extended it to the categories too. Pffffff.....
Maarten
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template. Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries? How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one city https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Viki_Abid%C9%99l%C9%99ri_Sevir_2013/Abid%C9%99l%C9%99rin_siyah%C4%B1s%C4%B1/%C5%9Eu%C5%9Fa of Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinces https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%BC%D5%82%D5%80_%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B4%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%A9%D5%B5%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D6%87_%D5%B4%D5%B7%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B5%D5%A9%D5%AB_%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%AA_%D5%B0%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%B1%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B6%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AB_%D6%81%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%AF).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
* We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least until 30 September * We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template. Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries? How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi Vacio,
I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'.
First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings.
But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.
The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact. Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added. Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added.
But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).
I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage.
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Vacio vacio@riseup.net
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one cityhttps://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Viki_Abid%C9%99l%C9%99ri_Sevir_2013/Abid%C9%99l%C9%99rin_siyah%C4%B1s%C4%B1/%C5%9Eu%C5%9Faof Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinceshttps://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%BC%D5%82%D5%80_%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B4%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%A9%D5%B5%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D6%87_%D5%B4%D5%B7%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B5%D5%A9%D5%AB_%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%AA_%D5%B0%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%B1%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B6%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AB_%D6%81%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%AF ).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
- We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least
until 30 September
- We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change
hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template. Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries? How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi dear Lodewijk,
I turn to you as a one of most up-loader photos in the world. I think it is no correct, when unwillingly users moves to other arrangements. I couldn't understand Azerbaijan country's people behavior. How can they explain, what most of participants in wlm.az ( http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/?pais=azerbaijan , also see attached pictures) are Armenians. Also, most of moved picture names written by Armenian letters.
In attached statistic you cans see "A.arpi.a, Vacio, Vagharsh, Aydinyan, Ghulyan, Vahag851 users. They most uploaders after Interface and Urek Meniashvili, and because they are wlm.az organizers, A.arpi.a becomes most up-loader for Azerbaijan country. Is it correct ?
For me it unjustness and need to correct it. I can understand, when this action do with new users, but when they do with wlm.az organizers, it's just shame for their country.
If Azerbaijan's think, monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh theirs, they can go to this place and take photos. It's their problem. But they just stolen 149 pictures from Armenian WLM. It's unjust.
I require to reset all mention users pictures history to first state.
Best regards, Arman M.
Четверг, 19 сентября 2013, 14:10 +02:00 от Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org:
Hi Vacio,
I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'.
First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings.
But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.
The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact. Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added. Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added.
But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).
I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage.
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Vacio < vacio@riseup.net >
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion
below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically
impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az ). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one city of Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinces ).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest
(they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
- We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images,
at least until 30 September
- We allow users to add only an alternative template which will
not change hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On
16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide
us with tools for running WLM
contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country
contest,
with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting
tools, etc?
Example of such image is: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will
consider only the first template.
Last year the database was designed to support a second country,
but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness
starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries?
How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos,
etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia
contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or
adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Members-list mailing list Members-list@wikimedia.am http://hosting.shte.am/mailman/listinfo/members-list_wikimedia.am
Hi,
I think it is great that these people shared their photos. In many countries there are uploaders from other countries, sometimes very active. This is something that always has been encouraged. So this is not really exceptional. And when I upload a picture, I might do the description in English or Dutch (my native language), but probably not in the local language. So also the fact that they use Armenian is not really something that surprises me. Independent of where the buildings are recognized.
I have a hard time understanding why you are upset that their images are participating in two competitions. The Azerbaijan organizers are probably happy that buildings they consider important are being photographed. The photographers should be happy that their chances of winning a prize have doubled! (will you be the first person to win Wiki Loves Monuments in two countries? Even with one photo! Wouldn't that be amazing?) The only people that could potentially complain are the people who submitted photos in Azerbaijan directly - their chances of winning something have decreased. The Armenian competition didn't decrease in size and is not negatively affected at all. Of course I'm assuming that the azerbaijan organizers will take extra effort and care to make sure that the jury will act neutrally and independent /who/ made the photo.
I see no injustness in the Azerbaijan competition following the Azerbaijan definition of what is a monument. I see no injustness in tagging photos accordingly if they are on that list. And I see definitely no injustness in giving Armenian photographers an extra chance to win a prize. I do agree that our life would probably be a bit easier if there was less overlap in definitions. But unfortunately these definitions are far from perfect, in each country.
So I would like to thank a.arpi.a and vacio (and many others!) for their great contribution in photos, and hope that we can all continue constructively: getting more good images of important buildings. And of course I thank you too for your amazing 2500 images!
With kind regards, Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Arman Musikyan arman_musikyan@mail.ru
Hi dear Lodewijk,
I turn to you as a one of most up-loader photos in the world. I think it is no correct, when unwillingly users moves to other arrangements. I couldn't understand Azerbaijan country's people behavior. How can they explain, what most of participants in wlm.az ( http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/?pais=azerbaijan, also see attached pictures) are Armenians. Also, most of moved picture names written by Armenian letters.
In attached statistic you cans see "A.arpi.a, Vacio, Vagharsh, Aydinyan, Ghulyan, Vahag851 users. They most uploaders after Interface and Urek Meniashvili, and because they are wlm.az organizers, A.arpi.a becomes most up-loader for Azerbaijan country. Is it correct ?
For me it unjustness and need to correct it. I can understand, when this action do with new users, but when they do with wlm.az organizers, it's just shame for their country.
If Azerbaijan's think, monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh theirs, they can go to this place and take photos. It's their problem. But they just stolen 149 pictures from Armenian WLM. It's unjust.
I require to reset all mention users pictures history to first state.
Best regards, Arman M.
Четверг, 19 сентября 2013, 14:10 +02:00 от Lodewijk < lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>:
Hi Vacio,
I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'.
First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings.
But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.
The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact. Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added. Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added.
But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).
I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage.
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Vacio <vacio@riseup.nethttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3avacio@riseup.net
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one cityhttps://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Viki_Abid%C9%99l%C9%99ri_Sevir_2013/Abid%C9%99l%C9%99rin_siyah%C4%B1s%C4%B1/%C5%9Eu%C5%9Faof Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinceshttps://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%BC%D5%82%D5%80_%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B4%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%A9%D5%B5%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D6%87_%D5%B4%D5%B7%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B5%D5%A9%D5%AB_%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%AA_%D5%B0%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%B1%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B6%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AB_%D6%81%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%AF ).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
- We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least
until 30 September
- We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change
hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template. Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries? How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Members-list mailing list Members-list@wikimedia.amhttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=Members%2dlist@wikimedia.am http://hosting.shte.am/mailman/listinfo/members-list_wikimedia.am
-- Arman Musikyan
It is obvious that the bitter relationship between Armenia and Azerbaijan is something that should be considered and not ignored. Probably for everyone, taking a picture and participating in two contests would be amazing... but this is not the case and it is clear why it is not.
I understand the issue that if you take a picture of something that has been declared as a monument in X country, the image can be tagged with the monument template (and categorized as such). But... I don't think that implies that you want to take part in Wiki Loves Monuments X. We have tagged pictures out of the contest with the monument template, but we are not tagging with {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2013|XX}} to any picture uploaded with a participating monument within the time frame. If I upload a picture of the Taj Mahal now, using the normal UploadWizard and not saying that I want to participate in WLM, nobody will put a template saying that it is indeed participating... then, why a picture of an Amernian contestant that don't want to take part in the Azerbaijani contest is tagged as such?
IMHO, both monument templates should be kept in the images, but keep the original {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2013|XX}} template according to the participant.
*Osmar Valdebenito G.* Director Ejecutivo A. C. Wikimedia Argentina
2013/9/19 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hi,
I think it is great that these people shared their photos. In many countries there are uploaders from other countries, sometimes very active. This is something that always has been encouraged. So this is not really exceptional. And when I upload a picture, I might do the description in English or Dutch (my native language), but probably not in the local language. So also the fact that they use Armenian is not really something that surprises me. Independent of where the buildings are recognized.
I have a hard time understanding why you are upset that their images are participating in two competitions. The Azerbaijan organizers are probably happy that buildings they consider important are being photographed. The photographers should be happy that their chances of winning a prize have doubled! (will you be the first person to win Wiki Loves Monuments in two countries? Even with one photo! Wouldn't that be amazing?) The only people that could potentially complain are the people who submitted photos in Azerbaijan directly - their chances of winning something have decreased. The Armenian competition didn't decrease in size and is not negatively affected at all. Of course I'm assuming that the azerbaijan organizers will take extra effort and care to make sure that the jury will act neutrally and independent /who/ made the photo.
I see no injustness in the Azerbaijan competition following the Azerbaijan definition of what is a monument. I see no injustness in tagging photos accordingly if they are on that list. And I see definitely no injustness in giving Armenian photographers an extra chance to win a prize. I do agree that our life would probably be a bit easier if there was less overlap in definitions. But unfortunately these definitions are far from perfect, in each country.
So I would like to thank a.arpi.a and vacio (and many others!) for their great contribution in photos, and hope that we can all continue constructively: getting more good images of important buildings. And of course I thank you too for your amazing 2500 images!
With kind regards, Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Arman Musikyan arman_musikyan@mail.ru
Hi dear Lodewijk,
I turn to you as a one of most up-loader photos in the world. I think it is no correct, when unwillingly users moves to other arrangements. I couldn't understand Azerbaijan country's people behavior. How can they explain, what most of participants in wlm.az ( http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/?pais=azerbaijan, also see attached pictures) are Armenians. Also, most of moved picture names written by Armenian letters.
In attached statistic you cans see "A.arpi.a, Vacio, Vagharsh, Aydinyan, Ghulyan, Vahag851 users. They most uploaders after Interface and Urek Meniashvili, and because they are wlm.az organizers, A.arpi.a becomes most up-loader for Azerbaijan country. Is it correct ?
For me it unjustness and need to correct it. I can understand, when this action do with new users, but when they do with wlm.az organizers, it's just shame for their country.
If Azerbaijan's think, monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh theirs, they can go to this place and take photos. It's their problem. But they just stolen 149 pictures from Armenian WLM. It's unjust.
I require to reset all mention users pictures history to first state.
Best regards, Arman M.
Четверг, 19 сентября 2013, 14:10 +02:00 от Lodewijk < lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>:
Hi Vacio,
I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'.
First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings.
But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.
The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact. Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added. Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added.
But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).
I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage.
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Vacio <vacio@riseup.nethttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3avacio@riseup.net
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am(at the result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one cityhttps://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Viki_Abid%C9%99l%C9%99ri_Sevir_2013/Abid%C9%99l%C9%99rin_siyah%C4%B1s%C4%B1/%C5%9Eu%C5%9Faof Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinceshttps://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%BC%D5%82%D5%80_%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B4%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%A9%D5%B5%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D6%87_%D5%B4%D5%B7%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B5%D5%A9%D5%AB_%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%AA_%D5%B0%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%B1%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B6%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AB_%D6%81%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%AF ).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
- We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least
until 30 September
- We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not
change hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest, with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand, Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template. Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries? How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Members-list mailing list Members-list@wikimedia.amhttps://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?compose&To=Members%2dlist@wikimedia.am http://hosting.shte.am/mailman/listinfo/members-list_wikimedia.am
-- Arman Musikyan
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
To me that also seems as the solution. The fact whether something is a monument could be added, simply because it's a fact. The choice to enter the contest can be fixed on images (I've done so when I believe the uploaders intentions are to participate). But if the uploader makes clear that he or she does not wish to participate than the WLM-template should not be added. Mvg, Bas
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 11:39:57 -0300 From: osmar@wikimedia.org.ar To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org CC: arman_musikyan@mail.ru; members-list@wikimedia.am Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-AM members] Tech question: 2 WLM templates of different country contests on same file
It is obvious that the bitter relationship between Armenia and Azerbaijan is something that should be considered and not ignored. Probably for everyone, taking a picture and participating in two contests would be amazing... but this is not the case and it is clear why it is not.
I understand the issue that if you take a picture of something that has been declared as a monument in X country, the image can be tagged with the monument template (and categorized as such). But... I don't think that implies that you want to take part in Wiki Loves Monuments X. We have tagged pictures out of the contest with the monument template, but we are not tagging with {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2013|XX}} to any picture uploaded with a participating monument within the time frame. If I upload a picture of the Taj Mahal now, using the normal UploadWizard and not saying that I want to participate in WLM, nobody will put a template saying that it is indeed participating... then, why a picture of an Amernian contestant that don't want to take part in the Azerbaijani contest is tagged as such?
IMHO, both monument templates should be kept in the images, but keep the original {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2013|XX}} template according to the participant. Osmar Valdebenito G. Director EjecutivoA. C. Wikimedia Argentina
2013/9/19 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
Hi, I think it is great that these people shared their photos. In many countries there are uploaders from other countries, sometimes very active. This is something that always has been encouraged. So this is not really exceptional. And when I upload a picture, I might do the description in English or Dutch (my native language), but probably not in the local language. So also the fact that they use Armenian is not really something that surprises me. Independent of where the buildings are recognized.
I have a hard time understanding why you are upset that their images are participating in two competitions. The Azerbaijan organizers are probably happy that buildings they consider important are being photographed. The photographers should be happy that their chances of winning a prize have doubled! (will you be the first person to win Wiki Loves Monuments in two countries? Even with one photo! Wouldn't that be amazing?) The only people that could potentially complain are the people who submitted photos in Azerbaijan directly - their chances of winning something have decreased. The Armenian competition didn't decrease in size and is not negatively affected at all. Of course I'm assuming that the azerbaijan organizers will take extra effort and care to make sure that the jury will act neutrally and independent /who/ made the photo.
I see no injustness in the Azerbaijan competition following the Azerbaijan definition of what is a monument. I see no injustness in tagging photos accordingly if they are on that list. And I see definitely no injustness in giving Armenian photographers an extra chance to win a prize. I do agree that our life would probably be a bit easier if there was less overlap in definitions. But unfortunately these definitions are far from perfect, in each country.
So I would like to thank a.arpi.a and vacio (and many others!) for their great contribution in photos, and hope that we can all continue constructively: getting more good images of important buildings. And of course I thank you too for your amazing 2500 images!
With kind regards,Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Arman Musikyan arman_musikyan@mail.ru
Hi dear Lodewijk,
I turn to you as a one of most up-loader photos in the world. I think it is no correct, when unwillingly users moves to other arrangements. I couldn't understand Azerbaijan country's people behavior. How can they explain, what most of participants in wlm.az (http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/?pais=azerbaijan, also see attached pictures) are Armenians. Also, most of moved picture names written by Armenian letters.
In attached statistic you cans see "A.arpi.a, Vacio, Vagharsh, Aydinyan, Ghulyan, Vahag851 users. They most uploaders after Interface and Urek Meniashvili, and because they are wlm.az organizers, A.arpi.a becomes most up-loader for Azerbaijan country. Is it correct ?
For me it unjustness and need to correct it. I can understand, when this action do with new users, but when they do with wlm.az organizers, it's just shame for their country.
If Azerbaijan's think, monuments in Nagorno-Karabakh theirs, they can go to this place and take photos. It's their problem. But they just stolen 149 pictures from Armenian WLM. It's unjust.
I require to reset all mention users pictures history to first state.
Best regards, Arman M.
Четверг, 19 сентября 2013, 14:10 +02:00 от Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org:
Hi Vacio, I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of your 'solution'. First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan government thinks those are important buildings.
But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate (probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.
The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a sign of appreciation and matter of fact.
Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition (submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be added.
Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added. But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).
I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia, has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural heritage.
Lodewijk
2013/9/19 Vacio vacio@riseup.net
Dear all,
I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the result of manual change of templates in their photos).
Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the monuments of one city of Nagorno-Karabakh, while wlm.am included 4 provinces).
This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a decision on how to solve this.
I personally can think of two options:
* We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least until 30 September
* We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
Vacio
On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM
contest.
If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest,
with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign
necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
Example of such image is:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD...
Thanks beforehand,
Xelgen
The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider only the first template.
Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a couple more found later for some rivers.
I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries?
How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests, it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those images to an am+az pseudo-country.
PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect the monument identifier.
_______________________________________________
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
_______________________________________________
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
_______________________________________________
Members-list mailing list
Members-list@wikimedia.am
http://hosting.shte.am/mailman/listinfo/members-list_wikimedia.am
2013/9/19 Osmar Valdebenito osmar@wikimedia.org.ar:
It is obvious that the bitter relationship between Armenia and Azerbaijan is something that should be considered and not ignored. Probably for everyone, taking a picture and participating in two contests would be amazing... but this is not the case and it is clear why it is not.
Hi all,
We discussed this situation during the last meeting of the international team and this is our view about it. We have identified some possible cases:
1) Monuments identifier template: It is possible to add monument identifiers templates anytime to the pictures, since this actually depends on the fact that the given monument is officially recognized as cultural heritage by country X or Y. This can be easily checked by anyone and added/removed if it's the case.
2) Adding WLM templates for the first time. * 2a) Images where the user clearly want to participate WLM, but in another country and the monuments is participating in more than one contest., this has to be avaluated case to case, but in general it is good to add an additional template. The point is that it is ok to add an additional template (don't remove unless you know for sure it's wrong!), because you assume you're helping that user. But only do this a first time - don't (re-)add it if a user indicated they don't want to participate. * 2b) Images uploaded without any indication that the user wants to participate, don't do anything.
3) Removing WLM template from your own images: * 3a) Images with a clearly wrong WLM template, remove the wrong template and add the correct one: go further and fix it (e.g. photo of the Eiffel Tower with WLM India template). * 3b) In general, you can *remove* the WLM template only from your own images (i.e. images you have personally uploaded), we think in general people should not be elicited from participating WLM in whatever country if they sent an image for it in the first place.
Cristian
hi Cristian, Thank you, I think that makes perfect sense. If you don't mind, I'll copy this text to the TP of WLM page in Commons.
@Lodewijk, I just want to make sure I was correctly understood in my earlier message:
Basically I was/am not against the idea that one monument could participate to the contest in 2 countries (Armenia and Azerbaijan in this case). Moreover, if a monument is recognized in two countries we should mention that one or another way (sure, that adds value to Commons!).
The point was however that we would need proper preperation (and also intensive cooperation with Azerbaijani Wikimedians) to try to make this work. Frankly, even then I am not sure if we would succeed. As I mentioned, we can't travel to the other country, but we also can't send packages by post and as far as I know you can get in jail in Azerbaijan if you have contact with Armenian organizations (it is really shameful how Armenia and Azerbaijan live with each other..)
But, anyhow, I think the international team made a reasonable decision. I will tell Armenian participants that they can remove templates added to their photos if they want to.
Thank you all, Vacio
On 09/20/13 02:20 , Cristian Consonni wrote:
2013/9/19 Osmar Valdebenito osmar@wikimedia.org.ar:
It is obvious that the bitter relationship between Armenia and Azerbaijan is something that should be considered and not ignored. Probably for everyone, taking a picture and participating in two contests would be amazing... but this is not the case and it is clear why it is not.
Hi all,
We discussed this situation during the last meeting of the international team and this is our view about it. We have identified some possible cases:
- Monuments identifier template: It is possible to add monument
identifiers templates anytime to the pictures, since this actually depends on the fact that the given monument is officially recognized as cultural heritage by country X or Y. This can be easily checked by anyone and added/removed if it's the case.
- Adding WLM templates for the first time.
- 2a) Images where the user clearly want to participate WLM, but in
another country and the monuments is participating in more than one contest., this has to be avaluated case to case, but in general it is good to add an additional template. The point is that it is ok to add an additional template (don't remove unless you know for sure it's wrong!), because you assume you're helping that user. But only do this a first time - don't (re-)add it if a user indicated they don't want to participate.
- 2b) Images uploaded without any indication that the user wants to
participate, don't do anything.
- Removing WLM template from your own images:
- 3a) Images with a clearly wrong WLM template, remove the wrong
template and add the correct one: go further and fix it (e.g. photo of the Eiffel Tower with WLM India template).
- 3b) In general, you can *remove* the WLM template only from your
own images (i.e. images you have personally uploaded), we think in general people should not be elicited from participating WLM in whatever country if they sent an image for it in the first place.
Cristian
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