Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5 which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング" https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0 *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbot&dir=prev&offset=20150422000329&target=Dexbot) it would be awesome.
Thanks, Best
I think using the order "Last, First" is a convention for page names in the Russian Wikipedia. I don't think having this form in Russian labels on Wikidata is necessary (or even desirable). Maybe The Other Amir can tell us more :)
Am 22.04.2015 um 14:48 schrieb Amir Ladsgroup:
Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is:"艾伦·图灵" https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5 which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリン グ" https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0 *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbot&dir=prev&offset=20150422000329&target=Dexbot) it would be awesome.
Thanks, Best
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That sounds to me as very useful indeed, Amir. I'm a newby to wikidata but as soon as I am back from my holiday (as of 5/5) I'd like to help. I know how to transliterate Armenian, Georgian, Ukrainian and Russian to internationally standardized (ISO-standards) forms (and to English and maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?
best regards, Eric van Balkum ('Eric de Muziekbibliothecaris') (former) Music Librarian, managing authority database at www.mcomb.nl _'Music was my first love, and it will be my last'_
Amir Ladsgroup schreef op 2015-04-22 14:48:
Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" [2] which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング" [3] *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" [4] is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this [5]) it would be awesome.
Thanks, Best
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l [1]
Links: ------ [1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l [2] https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5 [3] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%... [4] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D... [5] https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbot&...
Am 22.04.2015 um 15:09 schrieb Erics wikiadres:
Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?
Yes, easily. Wikibase supports full unicode. Well, at least for the BMP. Support for other unicode planes (say, traditional chinese) may not be perfect.
Hi!
maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?
As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would struggle with.
As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew
Stas Malyshev, 22/04/2015 22:10:
Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and seems to be much more common.
Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .
However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex.
Nemo
Hi!
Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .
Well, "scientific/ISO standards" is in this case at least three different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian
However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex.
Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349%27s last name is "Ватсон" but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613%27s is "Уотсон". And I have no idea what is the correct romanization of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300%27s name.
On 2015-04-23 01:21, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .
Well, "scientific/ISO standards" is in this case at least three different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian
However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex.
Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349%27s last name is "Ватсон" but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613%27s is "Уотсон". And I have no idea what is the correct romanization of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300%27s name.
This is what we commonly use at the English Wikipedia for romanization of Russian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Romanization_of_Russian
It was already noted that the Russian Wikipedia uses the reverse order for names (Dostoyevsky, Fyodor Mikhaylovich), whereas there is no reason to use this order on Wikidata. The reasonable options should be either "Fyodor Dostoyevsky" or (less preferable to me) "Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky".
Cheers Yaroslav
Hoi, Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that language.. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 14:22, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-23 01:21, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after
citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic .
Well, "scientific/ISO standards" is in this case at least three different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian
However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so
they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex.
Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349%27s last name is "Ватсон" but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613%27s is "Уотсон". And I have no idea what is the correct romanization of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300%27s name.
This is what we commonly use at the English Wikipedia for romanization of Russian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Romanization_of_Russian
It was already noted that the Russian Wikipedia uses the reverse order for names (Dostoyevsky, Fyodor Mikhaylovich), whereas there is no reason to use this order on Wikidata. The reasonable options should be either "Fyodor Dostoyevsky" or (less preferable to me) "Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky".
Cheers Yaroslav
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On 2015-04-26 22:26, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that language.. Thanks, GerardM
This is fine with me, but using ISO is really really weird for any Russian speaker. And I would like to see any reason why a romanization chosen for English labels on Wikidata should be deliberately different from English Wikipedia.
Cheers Yaroslav
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:30, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:26, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that language.. Thanks, GerardM
This is fine with me, but using ISO is really really weird for any Russian speaker. And I would like to see any reason why a romanization chosen for English labels on Wikidata should be deliberately different from English Wikipedia.
Cheers Yaroslav
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On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
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When we use auto transliteration to generate English labels then I think we should follow the practice of the English Wikipedia with other transliterations demoted to aliases.
Similarly auto generated German labels should follow the transliteration practices in the German wikipedia.
When we use an auto transliteration bot to generate qualifier statements with transliteration of values in "birth name" statements (and other name statements ) then we just need a separate property for each transliteration scheme and make sure the bot uses the appropriate property for each qualifier statement. We can have lots of transliteration qualifier statements for each value (plus statements for IPA and for a pronunciation recording ).
Joe On 26 Apr 2015 21:40, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
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Hoi, A fine position statement ... but what is your argument ? WHY Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 23:15, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
When we use auto transliteration to generate English labels then I think we should follow the practice of the English Wikipedia with other transliterations demoted to aliases.
Similarly auto generated German labels should follow the transliteration practices in the German wikipedia.
When we use an auto transliteration bot to generate qualifier statements with transliteration of values in "birth name" statements (and other name statements ) then we just need a separate property for each transliteration scheme and make sure the bot uses the appropriate property for each qualifier statement. We can have lots of transliteration qualifier statements for each value (plus statements for IPA and for a pronunciation recording ).
Joe On 26 Apr 2015 21:40, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
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Hi!
<grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission.
No, it's *a* standard (or, rather, two of them). There are 11 of them overall listed just on Wiki, and there might be more too. And of those, ISO not the most commonly used and looks alien to both Russian and English speakers, why insist on it?
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
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Hoi, Transliteration is exactly that. My name is Dutch, it is used written the same in English, French and German. They are languages I understand (up to a point) I know that my name is pronounced substantially in all of them.
A name that is Ukrainian or Serbian could be should be transliterated differently. Thanks, GerardM
On 27 April 2015 at 19:08, Leon Liesener leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
(fortunately), why
should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
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I understand your point. But unfortunately Dutch, French and German are rather bad examples. There are enough languages which would localise your name, like e. g. the Baltic languages Lithuanian and Latvian. Here an example from Latvian language Wikipedia: https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhards_%C5%A0r%C4%93ders (the former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder) The Dutch Gerard Meijssen would not stay Gerard Meijssen in such languages, in Lithuanian language you would likely be called Gerardas Meisenas or the like, and also labelled as such.
Am 27.04.2015 um 22:32 schrieb Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Transliteration is exactly that. My name is Dutch, it is used written the same in English, French and German. They are languages I understand (up to a point) I know that my name is pronounced substantially in all of them.
A name that is Ukrainian or Serbian could be should be transliterated differently. Thanks, GerardM
On 27 April 2015 at 19:08, Leon Liesener leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
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I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
(fortunately), why
should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
- English labels for villages and towns
- English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru
wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
Wikipedia
uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
(fortunately), why
should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
- English labels for villages and towns
- English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia
is
definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru
wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
WIkipedia
for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for
the
benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about
a
Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
Wikipedia
uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
(fortunately), why
should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
- English labels for villages and towns
- English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia
is
definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru
wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > Hoi > My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
WIkipedia
> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for
the
> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. > Thanks, > GerardM >
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
about a
Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
Wikipedia
uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
(fortunately), why
should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Cheers Yaroslav
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
- English labels for villages and towns
- English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
: Hoi, <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin>
Wikipedia is
definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM
On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru
wrote:
> > On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >> Hoi >> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any
WIkipedia
>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for
the
>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> > > On one hand, yes. > > On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes
about a
> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English
Wikipedia
> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO
(fortunately), why
> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? > > > Cheers > Yaroslav > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
- English labels for villages and towns
- English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all.
2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >: > Hoi, > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is > definitely not a standard by its own admission. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote: >> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> Hoi >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >> >> On one hand, yes. >> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >> >> >> Cheers >> Yaroslav >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >
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Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com
wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example :
- English labels for villages and towns
- English labels for people
*English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too.
Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de wrote:
> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent > transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are > language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If > you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get > is > not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin > script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface > language, if at all. > > 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: > > Hoi, > > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> > Wikipedia is > > definitely not a standard by its own admission. > > Thanks, > > GerardM > > > > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru > wrote: > >> > >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >>> > >>> Hoi > >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any > WIkipedia > >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not > for the > >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. > >>> Thanks, > >>> GerardM > >>> > >> > >> On one hand, yes. > >> > >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes > about a > >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English > Wikipedia > >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO > (fortunately), why > >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? > >> > >> > >> Cheers > >> Yaroslav > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikidata-l mailing list > >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikidata-l mailing list > > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea.
2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels > for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which > transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : > * English labels for villages and towns > * English labels for people > *English labels for bands and albums > I'm sure there are others that could use this too. > > Joe > On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de > wrote: > >> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >> language-independent >> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If >> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get >> is >> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >> interface >> language, if at all. >> >> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >> > Hoi, >> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >> Wikipedia is >> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >> > Thanks, >> > GerardM >> > >> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hoi >> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >> WIkipedia >> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not >> for the >> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> GerardM >> >>> >> >> >> >> On one hand, yes. >> >> >> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes >> about a >> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >> Wikipedia >> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >> (fortunately), why >> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Yaroslav >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikidata-l mailing list >> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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Hoi, A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what? Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago, that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec in our galaxy. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea.
2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's always possible to transliterate the official name > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course > this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment > for the ''name'' properties. > > 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com: > >> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for >> labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for >> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : >> * English labels for villages and towns >> * English labels for people >> *English labels for bands and albums >> I'm sure there are others that could use this too. >> >> Joe >> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de >> wrote: >> >>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >>> language-independent >>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. >>> If >>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you >>> get is >>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >>> interface >>> language, if at all. >>> >>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >>> > Hoi, >>> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >>> Wikipedia is >>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >>> > Thanks, >>> > GerardM >>> > >>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoi >>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >>> WIkipedia >>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not >>> for the >>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> GerardM >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> On one hand, yes. >>> >> >>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes >>> about a >>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >>> Wikipedia >>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >>> (fortunately), why >>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Cheers >>> >> Yaroslav >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Wikidata-l mailing list >>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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...
I did not say "automatically translate into my on language everybody should speak as I'm the only True One in the Universe and everybody should bow and learn and pray I'll treat them well and talk in my own language otherwise bad things will happen",
I said "transliterate in the main users language", the same reason we translate the UI,, the help pages, the Wikipedia articles and so on.
2015-05-01 16:40 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what? Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago, that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec in our galaxy. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea.
2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
> Hoi, > We transliterate every name from one script to the other. > Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not > transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < > thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It's always possible to transliterate the official name >> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course >> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment >> for the ''name'' properties. >> >> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com: >> >>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for >>> labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for >>> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : >>> * English labels for villages and towns >>> * English labels for people >>> *English labels for bands and albums >>> I'm sure there are others that could use this too. >>> >>> Joe >>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de >>> wrote: >>> >>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >>>> language-independent >>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. >>>> If >>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you >>>> get is >>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >>>> interface >>>> language, if at all. >>>> >>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >>>> > Hoi, >>>> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >>>> Wikipedia is >>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > GerardM >>>> > >>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter < >>>> putevod@mccme.ru> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hoi >>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >>>> WIkipedia >>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is >>>> not for the >>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of >>>> English. >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> GerardM >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> On one hand, yes. >>>> >> >>>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT >>>> writes about a >>>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >>>> Wikipedia >>>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >>>> (fortunately), why >>>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Cheers >>>> >> Yaroslav >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Hoi, The point is that you insist on something where I do not see at all an application or a use case. Why restrict it to the "main users language". The point of Wikidata is that we do not have those. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 16:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
...
I did not say "automatically translate into my on language everybody should speak as I'm the only True One in the Universe and everybody should bow and learn and pray I'll treat them well and talk in my own language otherwise bad things will happen",
I said "transliterate in the main users language", the same reason we translate the UI,, the help pages, the Wikipedia articles and so on.
2015-05-01 16:40 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what? Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago, that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec in our galaxy. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said.
It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea.
2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com
wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com :
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the > original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a > qualifier. > > Joe > On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Hoi, >> We transliterate every name from one script to the other. >> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not >> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < >> thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It's always possible to transliterate the official name >>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course >>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment >>> for the ''name'' properties. >>> >>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com >>> : >>> >>>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for >>>> labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for >>>> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : >>>> * English labels for villages and towns >>>> * English labels for people >>>> *English labels for bands and albums >>>> I'm sure there are others that could use this too. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >>>>> language-independent >>>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >>>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense >>>>> really. If >>>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you >>>>> get is >>>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >>>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >>>>> interface >>>>> language, if at all. >>>>> >>>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >>>>> > Hoi, >>>>> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >>>>> Wikipedia is >>>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > GerardM >>>>> > >>>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter < >>>>> putevod@mccme.ru> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Hoi >>>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >>>>> WIkipedia >>>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is >>>>> not for the >>>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of >>>>> English. >>>>> >>> Thanks, >>>>> >>> GerardM >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On one hand, yes. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT >>>>> writes about a >>>>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the >>>>> English Wikipedia >>>>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >>>>> (fortunately), why >>>>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Cheers >>>>> >> Yaroslav >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ...
Hoi, You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not. What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your understanding. For this it is not relevant.
When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for your item. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ...
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You really don't read what I write or is it me who speaks so badly I can't make myself understood ? I'm beginning to wonder ... :)
2015-05-01 19:47 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not. What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your understanding. For this it is not relevant.
When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for your item. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ...
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Hoi You write what you do. It is just that your arguments are flawed and I do not accept them for the reasons given. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 21:17, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
You really don't read what I write or is it me who speaks so badly I can't make myself understood ? I'm beginning to wonder ... :)
2015-05-01 19:47 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not. What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your understanding. For this it is not relevant.
When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for your item. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ...
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Hi,
this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said.
Best regards Bene
Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com mailto:thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com <mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>>: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire <filceolaire@gmail.com <mailto:filceolaire@gmail.com>> wrote: Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com <mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>> wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com <mailto:thomas.douillard@gmail.com>> wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448>property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire <filceolaire@gmail.com <mailto:filceolaire@gmail.com>>: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" <leon.liesener@wikipedia.de <mailto:leon.liesener@wikipedia.de>> wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com <mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>>: > Hoi, > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> Wikipedia is > definitely not a standard by its own admission. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru <mailto:putevod@mccme.ru>> wrote: >> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> Hoi >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >> >> On one hand, yes. >> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >> >> >> Cheers >> Yaroslav >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete, and if there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well imagine situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example.
2015-05-01 11:04 GMT+02:00 Bene* benestar.wikimedia@gmail.com:
Hi,
this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said.
Best regards Bene
Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels > for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which > transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : > * English labels for villages and towns > * English labels for people > *English labels for bands and albums > I'm sure there are others that could use this too. > > Joe > On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de > wrote: > >> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >> language-independent >> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If >> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get >> is >> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >> interface >> language, if at all. >> >> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >> > Hoi, >> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >> Wikipedia is >> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >> > Thanks, >> > GerardM >> > >> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hoi >> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >> WIkipedia >> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not >> for the >> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> GerardM >> >>> >> >> >> >> On one hand, yes. >> >> >> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes >> about a >> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >> Wikipedia >> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >> (fortunately), why >> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Yaroslav >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikidata-l mailing list >> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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Am 02.05.2015 um 11:32 schrieb Thomas Douillard:
Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete, and if there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well imagine situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example.
Automatic transliteration is already implemented and used. You will notice if you set your user language to sr-el for instance (Serbian using latin alphabet). However:
* Transliteration is currently only supported between a handful of language variants, like the different scripts for Serbian, and various variants of Chinese.
* Transliteration (and language fallback in general) is only applied inside statements, not for editable labels, descriptions and aliases at the top of the page. It's unclear hoe language fallback should interact with editing.
* Transliteration (and language fallback in general) may not work correctly in qualifiers and references at the moment.
So, the general mechanism is already there, the question is just how to improve an apply it. It seems to me that we could use transliteration support for more languages, and that we should figure out a way to apply it to the "main" label and description shown at the top of the page.
I think it would be nice if the *official name* property could have a special treatment in the UI. Something like the way you plan to sort out ids out of the rest of the statements :) But I have no idea.
It's an important things, the name the local people gives to a place or a thing, it may be on road signs for example. It's kind of the "Main Name".
2015-05-02 11:54 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinzler@wikimedia.de:
Am 02.05.2015 um 11:32 schrieb Thomas Douillard:
Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete,
and if
there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well
imagine
situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example.
Automatic transliteration is already implemented and used. You will notice if you set your user language to sr-el for instance (Serbian using latin alphabet). However:
- Transliteration is currently only supported between a handful of language
variants, like the different scripts for Serbian, and various variants of Chinese.
- Transliteration (and language fallback in general) is only applied inside
statements, not for editable labels, descriptions and aliases at the top of the page. It's unclear hoe language fallback should interact with editing.
- Transliteration (and language fallback in general) may not work
correctly in qualifiers and references at the moment.
So, the general mechanism is already there, the question is just how to improve an apply it. It seems to me that we could use transliteration support for more languages, and that we should figure out a way to apply it to the "main" label and description shown at the top of the page.
-- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer
Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
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Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikimedia@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said.
Best regards Bene
Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties.
2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com:
> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels > for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which > transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : > * English labels for villages and towns > * English labels for people > *English labels for bands and albums > I'm sure there are others that could use this too. > > Joe > On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de > wrote: > >> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >> language-independent >> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If >> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get >> is >> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >> interface >> language, if at all. >> >> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >> > Hoi, >> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >> Wikipedia is >> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >> > Thanks, >> > GerardM >> > >> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hoi >> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >> WIkipedia >> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not >> for the >> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> GerardM >> >>> >> >> >> >> On one hand, yes. >> >> >> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes >> about a >> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >> Wikipedia >> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >> (fortunately), why >> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Yaroslav >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikidata-l mailing list >> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA currently :(. I don't, for example.
2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikimedia@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said.
Best regards Bene
Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's always possible to transliterate the official name > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course > this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment > for the ''name'' properties. > > 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com: > >> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for >> labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for >> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : >> * English labels for villages and towns >> * English labels for people >> *English labels for bands and albums >> I'm sure there are others that could use this too. >> >> Joe >> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" leon.liesener@wikipedia.de >> wrote: >> >>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >>> language-independent >>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. >>> If >>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you >>> get is >>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >>> interface >>> language, if at all. >>> >>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >>> > Hoi, >>> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >>> Wikipedia is >>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >>> > Thanks, >>> > GerardM >>> > >>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoi >>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >>> WIkipedia >>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not >>> for the >>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> GerardM >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> On one hand, yes. >>> >> >>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes >>> about a >>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >>> Wikipedia >>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >>> (fortunately), why >>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Cheers >>> >> Yaroslav >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Wikidata-l mailing list >>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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Once IPA is there it may be easier to provide Text-to-speech automatically.
2015-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com:
I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA currently :(. I don't, for example.
2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikimedia@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said.
Best regards Bene
Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier.
Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
> Hoi, > We transliterate every name from one script to the other. > Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not > transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < > thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It's always possible to transliterate the official name >> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course >> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment >> for the ''name'' properties. >> >> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com: >> >>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for >>> labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for >>> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : >>> * English labels for villages and towns >>> * English labels for people >>> *English labels for bands and albums >>> I'm sure there are others that could use this too. >>> >>> Joe >>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" < >>> leon.liesener@wikipedia.de> wrote: >>> >>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >>>> language-independent >>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. >>>> If >>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you >>>> get is >>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >>>> interface >>>> language, if at all. >>>> >>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >>>> > Hoi, >>>> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >>>> Wikipedia is >>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > GerardM >>>> > >>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter < >>>> putevod@mccme.ru> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hoi >>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >>>> WIkipedia >>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is >>>> not for the >>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of >>>> English. >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> GerardM >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> On one hand, yes. >>>> >> >>>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT >>>> writes about a >>>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English >>>> Wikipedia >>>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >>>> (fortunately), why >>>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Cheers >>>> >> Yaroslav >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Hoi, It is a Wiktionary thing .... :( and yes we can and yes we should already do this/ Thanks, GerardM
On 3 May 2015 at 10:43, Jo winfixit@gmail.com wrote:
Once IPA is there it may be easier to provide Text-to-speech automatically.
2015-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com:
I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA currently :(. I don't, for example.
2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM
On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikimedia@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said.
Best regards Bene
Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com
wrote:
I meant "add automatically the transliteration", not replace the name.
This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name.
2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com :
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com wrote:
> Exactly. The "official name " property always has the name in the > original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a > qualifier. > > Joe > On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Hoi, >> We transliterate every name from one script to the other. >> Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not >> transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard < >> thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It's always possible to transliterate the official name >>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course >>> this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment >>> for the ''name'' properties. >>> >>> 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceolaire@gmail.com >>> : >>> >>>> I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for >>>> labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for >>>> which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : >>>> * English labels for villages and towns >>>> * English labels for people >>>> *English labels for bands and albums >>>> I'm sure there are others that could use this too. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, "Leon Liesener" < >>>> leon.liesener@wikipedia.de> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for >>>>> language-independent >>>>> transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are >>>>> language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense >>>>> really. If >>>>> you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you >>>>> get is >>>>> not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin >>>>> script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian >>>>> interface >>>>> language, if at all. >>>>> >>>>> 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen < >>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: >>>>> > Hoi, >>>>> > <grin> ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard </grin> >>>>> Wikipedia is >>>>> > definitely not a standard by its own admission. >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > GerardM >>>>> > >>>>> > On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter < >>>>> putevod@mccme.ru> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Hoi >>>>> >>> My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any >>>>> WIkipedia >>>>> >>> for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is >>>>> not for the >>>>> >>> benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of >>>>> English. >>>>> >>> Thanks, >>>>> >>> GerardM >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On one hand, yes. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT >>>>> writes about a >>>>> >> Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the >>>>> English Wikipedia >>>>> >> uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO >>>>> (fortunately), why >>>>> >> should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Cheers >>>>> >> Yaroslav >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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Hi!
My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers, letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new.
Hoi, There are different transliterations per language pair.
When you include Wikidata in the mix; Wikidata should in my opinion support the transliteration from Russian to English according to ISO for its label. Anything else including whatever Wikipedia likes may be an alias.
Your point about confusion is the same as with standard metrics. Napoleon did us a service by moving to the metric system, It is sad that he did not conquer Britain so that we are now stuck with something that confuses the hell out of me when we have to deal with whatever you lot have.. Thanks, GerardM
On 27 April 2015 at 07:09, Stas Malyshev smalyshev@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi!
My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers, letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new.
-- Stas Malyshev smalyshev@wikimedia.org
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To my opinion (as a newbie to Wikidata) the label field in Wikidata should use standardized data and therefore should applaud, embrace and use ISO standards. One of the reasons is their impartiality (in the meaning that they are not related to one specific language). I'm glad to find a fellow-thinker in Gerard.
best regards, Eric
Gerard Meijssen schreef op 2015-04-27 08:29:
Hoi, There are different transliterations per language pair.
When you include Wikidata in the mix; Wikidata should in my opinion support the transliteration from Russian to English according to ISO for its label. Anything else including whatever Wikipedia likes may be an alias.
Your point about confusion is the same as with standard metrics. Napoleon did us a service by moving to the metric system, It is sad that he did not conquer Britain so that we are now stuck with something that confuses the hell out of me when we have to deal with whatever you lot have.. Thanks, GerardM
On 27 April 2015 at 07:09, Stas Malyshev smalyshev@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi!
My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English.
Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers, letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new.
-- Stas Malyshev smalyshev@wikimedia.org
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However the labels and aliases are in languages like "it" and "fr", so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex.
Doesn't each language have its own transliteration standards? It seems to me in language-specific lables rather they should be used than universal ISO. At least it would seem very strange if suddenly all "de" lables on Wikidata would be different from the dewiki article titles just because Wikidata follows ISO and dewiki the German standard.
Kind regards,
Leon
Thanks for your reaction, Stas. I understand what your saying, but I think it's quite arbitrary to use English transliteration. In my opinion transliteration should be unbiased and impartial, like those international (ISO) standards are. Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form?
best regards, Eric.
Stas Malyshev schreef op 2015-04-22 22:10:
Hi!
maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?
As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would struggle with.
As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew [1]
Links: ------ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew
Firstly, Note name of the thread, It's about transliterating names of "humans", not transliterating in general, so translation doesn't make sense at all in this case.
Secondly, I can transliterate names of Chinese people to Dutch or other Latin languages too, it will work well and it will have completely separate label in that item (so an item can easily have Dutch label and English label at the same time).
Thirdly ISO standard is something we can use in some cases but most of the time how common the transliteration is more important. By some standards Smith should be transliterated to "اسمیث" but "اسمیت" is more common and the latter is being used everywhere in Persian and the bot works that way. (Note that transliteration to Arabic is something completely different) (P.S. Arabic is another language I can work on it too)
Fourthly: Country of citizenship of the person is important too (My bot considers this too) why? e.g. "Michael" in Michael Jackson is being transliterated to "مایکل" (maay-kel) but "Michael" in Michael Schumacher is "میشائل" (mi-shaa-el) because this name pronounces differently in different languages. Same about James Bond and James Rodriguez (first is "جیمز", "Jeymez" and latter is "خامس", "Khaa-mes").
Best
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:36 AM Erics wikiadres wikizaken@xs4all.nl wrote:
Thanks for your reaction, Stas. I understand what your saying, but I think it's quite arbitrary to use English transliteration. In my opinion transliteration should be unbiased and impartial, like those international (ISO) standards are. Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form?
best regards, Eric.
Stas Malyshev schreef op 2015-04-22 22:10:
Hi!
maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' & 's'; Чайковский ---> Čajkovskij and Щедрин ---> Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these?
As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would struggle with.
As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew
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Am 23.04.2015 um 09:05 schrieb Erics wikiadres:
Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form?
Because there is no main form. Wikidata has one label per language, no main label.
Hi Amir,
You might want to drop Japanese at least for now, because it's complicated. Between any language and Japanese, there is no single standard to follow as far as I know. In fact, choosing the best way to write the name (and thus the page name) is one of the most frequent types of disputes about foreign BLPs on Japanese Wikipedia. There are always multiple possible transliterations for each syllable (it's usually phonetic, not letter-to-letter, transliteration), and a random choice will probably not the best one. For instance, "Amir" can be "アミール", "アーミール" or "アーミル".
That said, one possible approach might be to generate, for each name, all possible transliterations using a set of rules, and google them to see which is the most common one (and has at least some uses on the web). It would probably be safer to add the name in the source language into the query, and reject any candidate that gets less than, say, 100 hits, because some small number of hits might be just noise.
Best, Yusuke
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング" *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this) it would be awesome.
Thanks, Best
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On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Yusuke Matsubara whym@whym.org wrote:
Hi Amir,
You might want to drop Japanese at least for now, because it's complicated. Between any language and Japanese, there is no single standard to follow as far as I know. In fact, choosing the best way to write the name (and thus the page name) is one of the most frequent types of disputes about foreign BLPs on Japanese Wikipedia. There are always multiple possible transliterations for each syllable (it's usually phonetic, not letter-to-letter, transliteration), and a random choice will probably not the best one. For instance, "Amir" can be "アミール", "アーミール" or "アーミル".
That said, one possible approach might be to generate, for each name, all possible transliterations using a set of rules, and google them to see which is the most common one (and has at least some uses on the web). It would probably be safer to add the name in the source language into the query, and reject any candidate that gets less than, say, 100 hits, because some small number of hits might be just noise.
This is not how the bot words, It uses an algorithm to cluster words not
letters since it's useless (lots of languages like Persian has the same situation as Japanese) so we don't need to deal with complicated rules of transliteration directly, the bot automatically follows them and chooses the most frequent result.
I will make 100 edits and you check and tell if it's wrong. I started the bot to analyse.
Best
Best, Yusuke
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot
for
other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and
this
is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but
order is
the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵"
means
Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング" *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with
more
than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian,
same
order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels
in
your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu
but I
don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can
check
edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this) it would be
awesome.
Thanks, Best
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On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
It uses an algorithm to cluster words not letters since it's useless (lots of languages like Persian has the same situation as Japanese) so we don't need to deal with complicated rules of transliteration directly, the bot automatically follows them and chooses the most frequent result.
It sounds like I had a wrong assumption, sorry about that. Could you describe the algorithm a little bit more in detail, perhaps add it to the bot request page? Does it remember all pairs of words used in person names in two languages (on Wikidata), and combine them to transliterate a name newly given to it? Does it use more sophisticated tools like statistical machine translation?
By the way, I can confirm that "・" is a commonly used separator in Japanese for foreign person names. Another (less frequent) one is "＝".
Yusuke
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Yusuke Matsubara whym@whym.org wrote:
Hi Amir,
You might want to drop Japanese at least for now, because it's complicated. Between any language and Japanese, there is no single standard to follow as far as I know. In fact, choosing the best way to write the name (and thus the page name) is one of the most frequent types of disputes about foreign BLPs on Japanese Wikipedia. There are always multiple possible transliterations for each syllable (it's usually phonetic, not letter-to-letter, transliteration), and a random choice will probably not the best one. For instance, "Amir" can be "アミール", "アーミール" or "アーミル".
That said, one possible approach might be to generate, for each name, all possible transliterations using a set of rules, and google them to see which is the most common one (and has at least some uses on the web). It would probably be safer to add the name in the source language into the query, and reject any candidate that gets less than, say, 100 hits, because some small number of hits might be just noise.
This is not how the bot words, It uses an algorithm to cluster words not letters since it's useless (lots of languages like Persian has the same situation as Japanese) so we don't need to deal with complicated rules of transliteration directly, the bot automatically follows them and chooses the most frequent result.
I will make 100 edits and you check and tell if it's wrong. I started the bot to analyse.
Best
Best, Yusuke
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses "·" character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is: "艾伦·图灵" which "艾伦" means Alan and "图灵" means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: "・", e.g. "アラン・チューリング" *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like "FamilyName, GivenName" e.g. "Тьюринг, Алан" is "Turing, Alan". Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this) it would be awesome.
Thanks, Best
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