I'll echo Kevin's words, as I couldn't have said it better myself:
"To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this list. Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects, and that is a big deal. The gendergap would still be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome issue involved."
And while I may not jumping to join in on conversations regarding photos of questionable value to Wikipedia I think it prompts important discussions about how to shape the policy and culture of Wikipedia while preserving the intention of the site.
In addition, if you're calling for less drama I'd suggest you heed your own words, Beria. Pete's response did not imply you're not qualified to talk but rather called for some more constructive feedback and ideas. Obviously you're doing a lot for the gender gap and that's great. On the other hand, the attitude is completely uncalled for.
Hi Erin.
First we are - and we never - discussed "*Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects*" what we did discussed here was 3 or 4 articles *from en.wiki* that Sarah thinks need to be remade. As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects... en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed all the articles in this language, would not do much for the other several million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA.
So forgive me if I do believe that discuss 3 en.wiki articles will do nothing as far as gender gap solve is concerned. Might be good examples to someone when they are doing a presentation, but that is as far as this can go.
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "*poor me, nothing I do is good*" every time someone has a criticism against your work. _____ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho. http://wikimedia.pt/Donativos*
On 26 December 2011 02:34, Erin O'Rourke orourke.e@gmail.com wrote:
I'll echo Kevin's words, as I couldn't have said it better myself:
"To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this list. Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects, and that is a big deal. The gendergap would still be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome issue involved."
And while I may not jumping to join in on conversations regarding photos of questionable value to Wikipedia I think it prompts important discussions about how to shape the policy and culture of Wikipedia while preserving the intention of the site.
In addition, if you're calling for less drama I'd suggest you heed your own words, Beria. Pete's response did not imply you're not qualified to talk but rather called for some more constructive feedback and ideas. Obviously you're doing a lot for the gender gap and that's great. On the other hand, the attitude is completely uncalled for. -- Erin O'Rourke http://erin-orourke.com
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
This is exactly where my problem comes from : en-wiki is not "wikipedia" but one of many wikipedias, and wikipedias is not "Wikimedia project". Just to illustrate how the discussion pimp vs madam is cultural-biased, in French wikipedia, the inter-wiki for pimp is "proxénétisme" ("hustling") and the article is gender-neutral.
It would be interesting to have stats of all wikipedias comparing, for instance, the number of article about women scientists compared to article about men scientists (and the same for actor/actresses, sportmen/sportwomen).
Caroline
2011/12/26 Béria Lima beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects... en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed all the articles in this language, would not do much for the other several million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA.
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "/poor me, nothing I do is good/" every time someone has a criticism against your work.
I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore.
I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my "special file" until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today.
---
Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as /you/ like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly.
I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of "no one giving a fuck" about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I /worked/ my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also.
And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well.
I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the "monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list" situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even /less/ desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects.
This isn't the first time that I've actively, /and/ publicly asked you to stop behaving like this.
The goal of this list isn't to just "talk" about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being "too sensitive" or me "caring too much" or "me being paid" is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement.
Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking.
_and on another note, regarding language: _ I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do.
I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about?
Sarah
Sarah,
I assume you're the list moderator? Then you should be able to decide who joins/stays on/posts on the list, and not have to resort to rants such at this one.
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.comwrote:
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "*poor me, nothing I do is good*" every time someone has a criticism against your work.
I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore.
I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my "special file" until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today.
Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as *you* like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly.
I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of "no one giving a fuck" about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I *worked* my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also.
And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well.
I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the "monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list" situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even *less* desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects.
This isn't the first time that I've actively, *and* publicly asked you to stop behaving like this.
The goal of this list isn't to just "talk" about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being "too sensitive" or me "caring too much" or "me being paid" is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement.
Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking.
*and on another note, regarding language:
I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do.
I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about?
Sarah
-- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow*
Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate todayhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/US&utm_source=WMdonate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=20110130SB003&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome
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On 12/26/11 10:43 AM, Emily Monroe wrote:
Sarah,
I assume you're the list moderator? Then you should be able to decide who joins/stays on/posts on the list, and not have to resort to rants such at this one.
Great point Emily, and this has crossed my mind. I don't really feel comfortable "moderating" or "deciding" on who stays/posts/etc the list when the negative comments by Beria have been directed at me (and of course, I shared my opinion on the matter).
I'm in the process of investigating bringing in another moderator, actually.
-Sarah
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch@gmail.com mailto:sarah.stierch@gmail.com> wrote:
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "/poor me, nothing I do is good/" every time someone has a criticism against your work.I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore. I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my "special file" until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today. --- Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as /you/ like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly. I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of "no one giving a fuck" about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I /worked/ my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also. And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well. I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the "monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list" situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even /less/ desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects. This isn't the first time that I've actively, /and/ publicly asked you to stop behaving like this. The goal of this list isn't to just "talk" about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being "too sensitive" or me "caring too much" or "me being paid" is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement. Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking. _and on another note, regarding language: _ I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do. I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about? Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* >>Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate today <http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/US&utm_source=WMdonate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=20110130SB003&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome><< _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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So, if you're reluctant to moderate somebody who disrespects you, why be a moderator?
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.comwrote:
On 12/26/11 10:43 AM, Emily Monroe wrote:
Sarah,
I assume you're the list moderator? Then you should be able to decide who joins/stays on/posts on the list, and not have to resort to rants such at this one.
Great point Emily, and this has crossed my mind. I don't really feel comfortable "moderating" or "deciding" on who stays/posts/etc the list when the negative comments by Beria have been directed at me (and of course, I shared my opinion on the matter).
I'm in the process of investigating bringing in another moderator, actually.
-Sarah
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.comwrote:
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "*poor me, nothing I do is good*" every time someone has a criticism against your work.
I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore.
I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my "special file" until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today.
Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as *you* like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly.
I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of "no one giving a fuck" about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I *worked* my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also.
And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well.
I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the "monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list" situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even *less* desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects.
This isn't the first time that I've actively, *and* publicly asked you to stop behaving like this.
The goal of this list isn't to just "talk" about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being "too sensitive" or me "caring too much" or "me being paid" is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement.
Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking.
*and on another note, regarding language:
I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do.
I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about?
Sarah
-- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow*
Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate todayhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/US&utm_source=WMdonate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=20110130SB003&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome
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-- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow*
Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate todayhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/US&utm_source=WMdonate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=20110130SB003&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome
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Sarah.... Seriously.... When it comes to bullying... There are several options as to how to answer it.
One is blahblahblah. It takes your time, it takes our time, it takes its toll on the environment, and is bad on your health :)
When there is no bodily harm involved, I'd say to do just as with trolling. Let it go. Do not answer. Do as if it did not exist. Have a drink and forget about it. Do not escalate. Close your mind.
Do us the favor of thinking us able to filter out what is ridiculous and non sense from what is relevant and meaningful criticism. Beria is capable of both. Take the second and shut your mind from the first as most of us learnt to do ;)
Flo
Sent from my smartphone, wearing boxing gloves, so please, disregard any type mismatch.
On Dec 26, 2011, at 17:41, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "poor me, nothing I do is good" every time someone has a criticism against your work.
I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore.
I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my "special file" until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today.
Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as you like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly.
I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of "no one giving a fuck" about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I worked my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also.
And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well.
I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the "monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list" situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even less desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects.
This isn't the first time that I've actively, and publicly asked you to stop behaving like this.
The goal of this list isn't to just "talk" about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being "too sensitive" or me "caring too much" or "me being paid" is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement.
Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking.
and on another note, regarding language:
I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do.
I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about?
Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate today<<
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On 12/26/11 11:29 AM, Florence wrote:
Sarah.... Seriously.... When it comes to bullying... There are several options as to how to answer it.
One is blahblahblah. It takes your time, it takes our time, it takes its toll on the environment, and is bad on your health :)
But blahblahblahblah is one of my specialties! ;-)
When there is no bodily harm involved, I'd say to do just as with trolling. Let it go. Do not answer. Do as if it did not exist. Have a drink and forget about it. Do not escalate. Close your mind.
Do us the favor of thinking us able to filter out what is ridiculous and non sense from what is relevant and meaningful criticism. Beria is capable of both. Take the second and shut your mind from the first as most of us learnt to do ;)
I always get a ton of emails asking me to ignore these things. But, I just get so freaking fed up and I feel like I'm going to explode; and then private ranty emails can only go so far..and then...BOOM!!!
Perhaps I should take up boxing. Or just drink more. ;-) Maybe both. Thanks Flo!!
-Sarah
Good point, Florence, however, there is the issue of "You need to act like an adult, or make a halfway decent effort, to be here, and be unmoderated." You ignore kids sometimes when they behave badly to get attention. You can't always do that with an adult (or with kids, either).
And then, like Sarah just said, sometimes even a decent leader gets fed up to the point of not being able to ignore bad behavior.
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Florence anthere@anthere.org wrote:
Sarah.... Seriously.... When it comes to bullying... There are several options as to how to answer it.
One is blahblahblah. It takes your time, it takes our time, it takes its toll on the environment, and is bad on your health :)
When there is no bodily harm involved, I'd say to do just as with trolling. Let it go. Do not answer. Do as if it did not exist. Have a drink and forget about it. Do not escalate. Close your mind.
Do us the favor of thinking us able to filter out what is ridiculous and non sense from what is relevant and meaningful criticism. Beria is capable of both. Take the second and shut your mind from the first as most of us learnt to do ;)
Flo
Sent from my smartphone, wearing boxing gloves, so please, disregard any type mismatch.
On Dec 26, 2011, at 17:41, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
And one think is discuss something - even when people have different opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "*poor me, nothing I do is good*" every time someone has a criticism against your work.
I know I'm going to regret this, but, I can't be quiet anymore.
I apologize to this ENTIRE mailing list for this drama erupting, and I'm going to be sending gender gap-l into my "special file" until my heart rate goes down. If people want to talk to me, they can find me on IRC or in private email, today.
Beria, you're passive aggressive bullying behavior has reached my level of tolerance. I was going to email you privately, but, I decided against that, as *you* like to publicly share your feelings with the community, including specific people publicly.
I have previously stated it, the last thing I wish to do is flood the list with things that are of no benefit or interest to the community. If me feeling bad about doing that is a bad then, so be it, I'm just sick and tired of you repeatedly reminding me of how I'm doing something wrong, and your declaration of "no one giving a fuck" about what you have to say because you aren't a fellow or you aren't a staff member is equally passive aggressive. I *worked* my butt off for this fellowship, and a fellowship with WMF is something I have been exploring and trying to develop for almost two years now. I'm honored to have it, beyond words. Anyone can apply to be a fellow Beria, and passively declaring that no one cares about you because you aren't paid, is just a mean slap in the face of everyone who works hard at WMF and as volunteers. And remember, there are chapter people who get paid to do their jobs, also.
And this isn't just about me - you've done it to a lot of people. People I consider friends and colleagues, and people I don't even know well.
I'm tired of having to worry about the things I post on this list, Internal-L, and Foundation-L, being to your disapproval. I'm also tired of the "monthly wait for what Beria will say to someone that will cause drama on a mailing list" situation. While I'm sure others greatly appreciate your attitude, I don't, and others do not as well. Your behavior and bullying (which is defined here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullying) makes me have little to desire to participate in mailing list discussions, and even *less* desire to even consider attending a conference that you are co-planning. Which is something, civility, we touch on here on this mailing list, as being a deterrent for people wanting to participate in projects.
This isn't the first time that I've actively, *and* publicly asked you to stop behaving like this.
The goal of this list isn't to just "talk" about wanting to make changes, it's about making changes. Whether they are online, in any language project, or offline, through outreach, programming, edit-a-thons, and whatnot. I talk my talk and I walk my walk, and I know others here do too (and I try to share those projects when they are brought to my attention). And if me being "too sensitive" or me "caring too much" or "me being paid" is a deterrent to us moving the meter (aka closing the gap) then I guess I'm the worst representative for the gender gap movement.
Beria - I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not going to ask you to ever like me, be my bestfriend, or make an exception. I just want you to stop bullying me, others, and learn how your words affects others before you type them. I can handle criticism, when it's constructive. Not when it's rude, insensitive, unprofessional and at times attacking.
*and on another note, regarding language:
I only share what I know, and sadly, I have a permanent off switch in my head that makes it tough for me to learn other languages (and no, Google Translate does not count as quality accessibility), so when I can only talk for English Wikipedia, I only post about English Wikipedia. We've never called this list an English only list, I encourage people to participate in all languages, so please, please please do.
I apologize to everyone for making this a big freaking mess, but, I'm tired of this. Absolutely tired of it. Tired to the point where I have had trouble sleeping - I mean what the hell is that about?
Sarah
-- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow*
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On 12/26/11 11:36 AM, Emily Monroe wrote:
Good point, Florence, however, there is the issue of "You need to act like an adult, or make a halfway decent effort, to be here, and be unmoderated." You ignore kids sometimes when they behave badly to get attention. You can't always do that with an adult (or with kids, either).
And then, like Sarah just said, sometimes even a decent leader gets fed up to the point of not being able to ignore bad behavior.
Exactly. And it's tough - as the moderator, in which the negativity is being directed, I get a little paranoid about how far I can take my "power" (note the quotes, for sarcastic emphasis). For example, on English Wikipedia, from what I understand, if I was an admin and someone was un-civil towards me, /another/ admin would have to deal with it. I wouldn't be allowed to deal with it. So I guess, that's why I haven't said "you're out of here." Or perhaps I just need some validation, or the co-moderator (Sue) or something. (And this relates to your previous question about me moderating others who are being disrespectful towards me.) I guess I'm failing at *being bold* here.
Sarah
This isn't the English Wikipedia.
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.comwrote:
On 12/26/11 11:36 AM, Emily Monroe wrote:
Good point, Florence, however, there is the issue of "You need to act like an adult, or make a halfway decent effort, to be here, and be unmoderated." You ignore kids sometimes when they behave badly to get attention. You can't always do that with an adult (or with kids, either).
And then, like Sarah just said, sometimes even a decent leader gets fed up to the point of not being able to ignore bad behavior.
Exactly. And it's tough - as the moderator, in which the negativity is being directed, I get a little paranoid about how far I can take my "power" (note the quotes, for sarcastic emphasis). For example, on English Wikipedia, from what I understand, if I was an admin and someone was un-civil towards me, *another* admin would have to deal with it. I wouldn't be allowed to deal with it. So I guess, that's why I haven't said "you're out of here." Or perhaps I just need some validation, or the co-moderator (Sue) or something. (And this relates to your previous question about me moderating others who are being disrespectful towards me.) I guess I'm failing at *being bold* here.
Sarah
-- *Sarah Stierch* *Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow*
Support the sharing of free knowledge around the world: donate todayhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=WMFJA085/en/US&utm_source=WMdonate&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=20110130SB003&language=en&uselang=en&country=US&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwikimediafoundation.org%2Fwiki%2FHome
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Nor is it the Danish Wikibooks or the Swahili Wikinews. That doesn't really change the point that authority works better if the person using the authority is perceives as being outside the conflict. That is not always possible, of course.
Ole
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Emily Monroe emilymonroe03@gmail.com wrote:
This isn't the English Wikipedia.
From, Emily
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/26/11 11:36 AM, Emily Monroe wrote:
Good point, Florence, however, there is the issue of "You need to act like an adult, or make a halfway decent effort, to be here, and be unmoderated." You ignore kids sometimes when they behave badly to get attention. You can't always do that with an adult (or with kids, either).
And then, like Sarah just said, sometimes even a decent leader gets fed up to the point of not being able to ignore bad behavior.
Exactly. And it's tough - as the moderator, in which the negativity is being directed, I get a little paranoid about how far I can take my "power" (note the quotes, for sarcastic emphasis). For example, on English Wikipedia, from what I understand, if I was an admin and someone was un-civil towards me, another admin would have to deal with it. I wouldn't be allowed to deal with it. So I guess, that's why I haven't said "you're out of here." Or perhaps I just need some validation, or the co-moderator (Sue) or something. (And this relates to your previous question about me moderating others who are being disrespectful towards me.) I guess I'm failing at being bold here.
Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
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On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 1:25 AM, Béria Lima beria.lima@wikimedia.pt wrote:
Hi Erin.
First we are - and we never - discussed "*Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects*" what we did discussed here was 3 or 4 articles *from en.wiki* that Sarah thinks need to be remade. As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects... en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed all the articles in this language, would not do much for the other several million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA.
So forgive me if I do believe that discuss 3 en.wiki articles will do nothing as far as gender gap solve is concerned. Might be good examples to someone when they are doing a presentation, but that is as far as this can go.
If you don't think that directly addressing three small problems caused by the gender gap is a worthwhile endeavor I'm confused. Not everything can or should be a herculean effort aimed at making everything better at once. I think that addressing three or four individual problems is quite worthwhile, and it does solve a very small part of the problem.
If you have a problem with this list being dominated by English language stuff, the appropriate thing to do is to start discussions on problems in other languages. I'm sure that Sarah would love to see discussions about how the gender gap effects other language projects, and I know I would. We just don't speak any other language well enough to start such a discussion.
Additionally, as I said, the specific examples Sarah has brought up on this list have been of great use to me in doing physical outreach. One of her previous examples emailed to this list piqued a faculty member at UC Berkeley's interest when they heard about it secondhand - and as a result, her class will be participating in the education program next semester. They'll be shooting to bring thirty articles up to FA or near-FA quality, and will be focusing on areas where our existing coverage is weak because of our gender and other demographic gaps, using high quality academic sources to support their work. This has only happened (and I am being completely literal) because of one of Sarah's previous emails.
That seems to me to represent a pretty solid reason for Sarah to keep on posting in the way that she has been. If you disagree or are simply uninterested in her posts about en.wiki, it would take but a moment for you to simply delete them. (And I'm not saying that snarkily. I delete probably 75% of foundation-l without reading it most of the time.)
---- Kevin Gorman User:Kgorman-ucb
While I'm not really familiar with various conflicts among the various wikipedias in different languages and english-language oriented Wikimedia.org and the foundation. I don't know if a short listing of them would help clarify that for those of us who are confused. Being an anti-imperialist myself, I have to wonder if perhaps its related to general resentment of Brit/American military cultural imperialism.
But whatever it is, let's just seek a resolution. (And if it's just personality conflicts, perhaps we all could control ourselves? :-)
If the main problem here is the emphasis on English language solutions and the mention of problems with articles that only concern En.wikipedia, perhaps those speaking other languages could generate proposals on any relevant lists and then bring them here or to the relevant wikimedia pages or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be. I don't see a problem with listing an article as being problematic; perhaps people could again exercise self-control and not discuss the issues here at length and send private messages or go to talk page of article in question.
Just a thought...
Carol in dc
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Carol Moore carolmooredc@verizon.netwrote:
If the main problem here is the emphasis on English language solutions and the mention of problems with articles that only concern En.wikipedia, perhaps those speaking other languages could generate proposals on any relevant lists and then bring them here or to the relevant wikimedia pages or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be.
Ah! This sounds brilliant! Will this also apply to English speakers from the United States and United Kingdom? These individuals can speak to those in their national communities, generate relevant proposals on relevant lists (WM-DC, WM-NYC, the American cultures list) and bring them here or to the relevant Wikimedia pages, or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be?
This seems like an unfair burden to place on men and women in our community from outside the United States and United Kingdom. You're proposing barriers to entry and participation for potentially valuable contributors. Is this list only intended for Americans and Poms?
On 12/26/2011 10:42 PM, Laura Hale wrote:
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Carol Moore <carolmooredc@verizon.net mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
If the main problem here is the emphasis on English language solutions and the mention of problems with articles that only concern En.wikipedia, perhaps those speaking other languages could generate proposals on any relevant lists and then bring them here or to the relevant wikimedia pages or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be.Ah! This sounds brilliant! Will this also apply to English speakers from the United States and United Kingdom? These individuals can speak to those in their national communities, generate relevant proposals on relevant lists (WM-DC, WM-NYC, the American cultures list) and bring them here or to the relevant Wikimedia pages, or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be?
This seems like an unfair burden to place on men and women in our community from outside the United States and United Kingdom. You're proposing barriers to entry and participation for potentially valuable contributors. Is this list only intended for Americans and Poms?
First, I'm not sure IF language is the Main problem. Just got that impression from one or two posts.
No matter what the main language of the Wikimedia foundation - and who knows what it might be 50 years from now - finding ways to more actively get non-main language speakers involved is necessary. Other ways to do that would be to make sure Wikipedia has a number of employees who speak fluently at least 2 or 3 of the top 5 to 10 languages worldwide. It probably has some already.
Another potential one is messages can be posted to lists like this in several languages at once so everyone can understand them - instant translation software? Though of course that too could have it's problems.
But I do think a viable way is just making sure editors have a formal place to discuss issues and alternatives in own their language. Then individuals or representatives or both can bring these to English speakers where ever relevant.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2011 1:23 AM Carol Moore carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
"No matter what the main language of the Wikimedia foundation - and who knows what it might be 50 years from now - finding ways to more actively get non-main language speakers involved is necessary. Other ways to do that would be to make sure Wikipedia has a number of employees who speak fluently at least 2 or 3 of the top 5 to 10 languages worldwide. It probably has some already."
Language is a generic challenge across the global Wikimedia movement in all its facets including of course the cultural aspects that lend themselves to meaning and understanding. However just focusing on the different languages and the challenge that presents is really interesting. I'd like for instance to allocate into my interactive wikimedia life some time to familiarise myself with other languages, and so I'd like to ask if anyone might have a good idea, on how we who sit at the beckoned call of our computers, can use the technology to assist in the familiarisation and take up of any one or other of the those top 5 to 10 languages. For instance, I use for the French language, french.about.com, it is free on line. The 'about.com' language system is from English to French, to German, to Italian, to Japanese, to Mandarin and to Spanish. There may be more. I don't know if it works the other way around, it probably does. That is, Spanish to English, to German, and etc. Does anyone know of a better on line system to use. Also does anybody know of a good 'parsing' software that can be obtained.
Cheers, Anne
----- Original Message ----- From: Carol Moore To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] possible resolution... article differentials/unnecessary drama
On 12/26/2011 10:42 PM, Laura Hale wrote:
On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Carol Moore carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
If the main problem here is the emphasis on English language solutions and the mention of problems with articles that only concern En.wikipedia, perhaps those speaking other languages could generate proposals on any relevant lists and then bring them here or to the relevant wikimedia pages or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be.
Ah! This sounds brilliant! Will this also apply to English speakers from the United States and United Kingdom? These individuals can speak to those in their national communities, generate relevant proposals on relevant lists (WM-DC, WM-NYC, the American cultures list) and bring them here or to the relevant Wikimedia pages, or other forums or individuals, whatever/whoever they might be?
This seems like an unfair burden to place on men and women in our community from outside the United States and United Kingdom. You're proposing barriers to entry and participation for potentially valuable contributors. Is this list only intended for Americans and Poms?
First, I'm not sure IF language is the Main problem. Just got that impression from one or two posts.
No matter what the main language of the Wikimedia foundation - and who knows what it might be 50 years from now - finding ways to more actively get non-main language speakers involved is necessary. Other ways to do that would be to make sure Wikipedia has a number of employees who speak fluently at least 2 or 3 of the top 5 to 10 languages worldwide. It probably has some already.
Another potential one is messages can be posted to lists like this in several languages at once so everyone can understand them - instant translation software? Though of course that too could have it's problems.
But I do think a viable way is just making sure editors have a formal place to discuss issues and alternatives in own their language. Then individuals or representatives or both can bring these to English speakers where ever relevant.
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On 12/27/2011 8:23 PM, Ms. Anne Frazer wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2011 1:23 AM Carol Moore carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote: "No matter what the main language of the Wikimedia foundation - and who knows what it might be 50 years from now - finding ways to more actively get non-main language speakers involved is necessary. Other ways to do that would be to make sure Wikipedia has a number of employees who speak fluently at least 2 or 3 of the top 5 to 10 languages worldwide. It probably has some already." Language is a generic challenge across the global Wikimedia movement in all its facets including of course the cultural aspects that lend themselves to meaning and understanding. However just focusing on the different languages and the challenge that presents is really interesting. I'd like for instance to allocate into my interactive wikimedia life some time to familiarise myself with other languages, and so I'd like to ask if anyone might have a good idea, on how we who sit at the beckoned call of our computers, can use the technology to assist in the familiarisation and take up of any one or other of the those top 5 to 10 languages. For instance, I use for the French language, french.about.com, it is free on line. The 'about.com' language system is from English to French, to German, to Italian, to Japanese, to Mandarin and to Spanish. There may be more. I don't know if it works the other way around, it probably does. That is, Spanish to English, to German, and etc. Does anyone know of a better on line system to use. Also does anybody know of a good 'parsing' software that can be obtained. Cheers, Anne
Glad to see someone taking the general topic and possible solutions seriously. Hope the WikiFoundation people and those in heated debate about foundation issues do too :-)
I'm not sure what thread these comments would thread best in to, but I'm just going to put them here since it's the most recent one. I'm not intending this as a direct reply to anyone, just some thoughts about this series of threads.
Content-wise... I think the appropriate scope of this list is anything related to the gender gap on Wikimedia projects, broadly construed. I think this can and should include such things as discussion of outreach methods, discussion of high level ideas about how to help address the gap, discussion of research (like Joseph Reagle's recent study) about what the gap actually is and what problems it causes, discussion of people's experiences on the projects, offering support to people who have had negative experiences, and discussion of particular problems on any project that are related to/caused by/exacerbated by the gender gap. I don't see any particular reason to constrain the scope beyond that, and I don't think anyone has offered one. If someone does have a good reason to constraint the scope of the list beyond that, please share it.
Regarding language-specific content: I can understand why it would be frustrating for people from non-EN communities to repeatedly see people discuss EN project contents, but I think the solution to this is not to avoid talking about EN contents, but to encourage people who speak other languages to start talking about content from other language communities. The discussion of EN specific contents has generated tangible, important results. I do not understand why limiting the discussion of anything that has directly generated results that has/will positively impact the gendergap could possibly be a good thing. I would discuss non-EN things myself, but I don't speak any other language well enough to understand their communities enough to do so. I will be ecstatic if people from other communities start sharing their observations here. I mean I will literally be ecstatic. If anyone is in the SF bay area, we can meet up and I will buy you a beer and dance a jig to show exactly how ecstatic I mean. In physical outreach settings I am frequently asked about the gap's effects on non-EN projects, and never know enough to answer questions well.
Traffic-wise since it's been brought up a bit: I don't think that this is a high enough traffic list to be worth worrying about the small amount of added load that messages like Sarah's cause. In November, this list had ~84 messages. That's really pretty low. In comparison, F-L had 427, India-L had 512, and WLM had 105. If anyone honestly has trouble with the amount of email on this list, I would suggest either using rules in your mail client to shunt all gendergap messages off to a subfolder that you can read at your leisure, or changing to a daily digest (which would cap list traffic at ~30 messages a month.) If anyone needs a hand with either of these, shoot me a message off-list and I'll help you through it.
Behavior-wise... this has not been Foundation-L in the past, and I've been very glad of that. Some of the comments in this thread have been a lot closer to things you would see on F-L than to things you've traditionally seen here. I would hope that other subscribers agree with me that this list should not become F-L like. I think that it is important that this list serve as a safe space for discussion, and think that if someone repeatedly makes other people feel like it's not they should be moderated*, even if their behavior doesn't stoop to the level that would normally be considered blockworthy on any of the projects.
*For those unfamiliar, this would mean that any messages they send to the list would be held for approval by a moderator before being delivered to the general list, so that any inappropriate ones could be discarded.
---- Kevin Gorman User:Kgorman-ucb
Minor whoopsie, but when I was talking about behavior "this thread" should read "these threads." I wasn't meaning to say that there was anything wrong with carol or laura's posts.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Kevin Gorman kgorman@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not sure what thread these comments would thread best in to, but I'm just going to put them here since it's the most recent one. I'm not intending this as a direct reply to anyone, just some thoughts about this series of threads.
Content-wise... I think the appropriate scope of this list is anything related to the gender gap on Wikimedia projects, broadly construed. I think this can and should include such things as discussion of outreach methods, discussion of high level ideas about how to help address the gap, discussion of research (like Joseph Reagle's recent study) about what the gap actually is and what problems it causes, discussion of people's experiences on the projects, offering support to people who have had negative experiences, and discussion of particular problems on any project that are related to/caused by/exacerbated by the gender gap. I don't see any particular reason to constrain the scope beyond that, and I don't think anyone has offered one. If someone does have a good reason to constraint the scope of the list beyond that, please share it.
Regarding language-specific content: I can understand why it would be frustrating for people from non-EN communities to repeatedly see people discuss EN project contents, but I think the solution to this is not to avoid talking about EN contents, but to encourage people who speak other languages to start talking about content from other language communities. The discussion of EN specific contents has generated tangible, important results. I do not understand why limiting the discussion of anything that has directly generated results that has/will positively impact the gendergap could possibly be a good thing. I would discuss non-EN things myself, but I don't speak any other language well enough to understand their communities enough to do so. I will be ecstatic if people from other communities start sharing their observations here. I mean I will literally be ecstatic. If anyone is in the SF bay area, we can meet up and I will buy you a beer and dance a jig to show exactly how ecstatic I mean. In physical outreach settings I am frequently asked about the gap's effects on non-EN projects, and never know enough to answer questions well.
Traffic-wise since it's been brought up a bit: I don't think that this is a high enough traffic list to be worth worrying about the small amount of added load that messages like Sarah's cause. In November, this list had ~84 messages. That's really pretty low. In comparison, F-L had 427, India-L had 512, and WLM had 105. If anyone honestly has trouble with the amount of email on this list, I would suggest either using rules in your mail client to shunt all gendergap messages off to a subfolder that you can read at your leisure, or changing to a daily digest (which would cap list traffic at ~30 messages a month.) If anyone needs a hand with either of these, shoot me a message off-list and I'll help you through it.
Behavior-wise... this has not been Foundation-L in the past, and I've been very glad of that. Some of the comments in this thread have been a lot closer to things you would see on F-L than to things you've traditionally seen here. I would hope that other subscribers agree with me that this list should not become F-L like. I think that it is important that this list serve as a safe space for discussion, and think that if someone repeatedly makes other people feel like it's not they should be moderated*, even if their behavior doesn't stoop to the level that would normally be considered blockworthy on any of the projects.
*For those unfamiliar, this would mean that any messages they send to the list would be held for approval by a moderator before being delivered to the general list, so that any inappropriate ones could be discarded.
Kevin Gorman User:Kgorman-ucb