Martian,
While it’s not something I could conjure up today, my time at WMF exposed me to enough things that I could not have imagined prior to seeing them for myself that I am unwilling to discount that such a situation could exist.
Philippe
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 11:25 PM Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoekstra@gmail.com wrote:
Phillipe,
Can you imagine a hypothetical situation where it would have been appropriate for this WMF office action to exist though - that is to say, not serious enough to ban a user from any other wiki than en. and serious enough to take direct action outside of the community?
I sure can't, yet here it happened. That means I also can't really disqualify any other points that I can't imagine as surely false. Can you, from your personal experience reconcile what happened here good enough, so that when you say you can't imagine, that dismisses the issue? Or do you maybe also have to suspend your judgement on what probably did or didn't happen as you are also in the realm of "can't imagine" already?
On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 04:35 Philippe Beaudette philippe@beaudette.me wrote:
Nathan writes:
*“Why are WMF staffers so*
*deeply, fundamentally disconnected from the communities where they feel the* *right to ban people for saying "fuck arbcom"?”*
I’ve seen no evidence that this is the case here and would be utterly shocked if a t&s staff member had indeed banned for saying that.
If the situation is anything like what it was when I was at WMF, a ban
such
as this requires multiple levels of review by a couple of different teams (in my time, we would not have considered a ban such as this without sign off from the community and legal teams, for instance). I don’t know if
the
process is the same now but I would be surprised to hear that any single staff member would feel comfortable banning on his or her authority
alone.
Multiple levels of review exist in order to ensure that ban reasons are valid and appropriate.
Philippe
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 6:55 PM Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Wow, what a cluster. How does the WMF get themselves into these
things? I
have ten edits to en.wp since 2018 and even I could have 100% predicted
the
entire spectrum, and scale, of the reaction here. Why are WMF staffers
so
deeply, fundamentally disconnected from the communities where they feel
the
right to ban people for saying "fuck arbcom"?
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:49 PM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com
wrote:
Amir, yes, ArbCom members must sign the WMF confidentiality agreement
for
nonpublic information (
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Confidentiality_agreement_for_nonpublic_info...
) , as must all functionaries (checkuser, oversight, etc.). I was on
the
English Wikipedia ArbCom for two years, and it was routine for us to
deal
with sensitive, private information.
Todd
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 9:46 AM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com
wrote:
People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things
Fram
has
done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see
how
fast
people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I
personally,
don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the
ban.
As
simple as that.
So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a
community
body
can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things:
- They had signed NDA not to disclose the case
- They are trusted by the community
I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not
sure
(Does ArbCom NDA'ed?)
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?)
based
on a
false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm
waiting
for
an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't
surprise
me
at all. It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this
kind
of
medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia
Movement.
Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities.
Best, Paulo
Benjamin Ikuta benjaminikuta@gmail.com escreveu no dia terça,
11/06/2019
à(s) 05:45:
> > > > Thanks for this. > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the
unilateralism
and
> lack of transparency. > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 <
techman224@techman224.ca>
wrote: > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that
they
weren't > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom
forwarding
a
> concern to the office. [1] > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own
autonomous
> rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no
complaints
> on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and
the
Arbcom > noticeboards. > > > > >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram...
> < >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram...
> > > > >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboa...
> > > > [1] >
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commit...
> < >
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commit...
> > > > [2] >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement...
> > > > Techman224 > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> > >> From: George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.com > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT > >> To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked
English
> Wikipedia > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for
unspecified
> >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement
here
from
> >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that
normal
policy > and > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under
normal
> >> circumstances preclude public comments. > >> > >> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram...
> >> > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're
making
private > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels,
due
to
the > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. > >> > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO
into
"Ok,
> >> responsible people following up". > >> > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under
Office
actions, > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff
myself
at
> >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is
most
unusual > but > >> not unheard of. > >> > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had
any
public
> >> comment, no reply as yet. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -george william herbert > >> george.herbert@gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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