Martian,
While it’s not something I could conjure up today, my time at WMF exposed
me to enough things that I could not have imagined prior to seeing them for
myself that I am unwilling to discount that such a situation could exist.
Philippe
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 11:25 PM Martijn Hoekstra <martijnhoekstra(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Phillipe,
Can you imagine a hypothetical situation where it would have been
appropriate for this WMF office action to exist though - that is to say,
not serious enough to ban a user from any other wiki than en. and serious
enough to take direct action outside of the community?
I sure can't, yet here it happened. That means I also can't really
disqualify any other points that I can't imagine as surely false. Can you,
from your personal experience reconcile what happened here good enough, so
that when you say you can't imagine, that dismisses the issue? Or do you
maybe also have to suspend your judgement on what probably did or didn't
happen as you are also in the realm of "can't imagine" already?
On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 04:35 Philippe Beaudette <philippe(a)beaudette.me>
wrote:
Nathan writes:
*“Why are WMF staffers so*
*deeply, fundamentally disconnected from the communities where they feel
the*
*right to ban people for saying "fuck arbcom"?”*
I’ve seen no evidence that this is the case here and would be utterly
shocked if a t&s staff member had indeed banned for saying that.
If the situation is anything like what it was when I was at WMF, a ban
such
as this requires multiple levels of review by a
couple of different teams
(in my time, we would not have considered a ban such as this without sign
off from the community and legal teams, for instance). I don’t know if
the
process is the same now but I would be surprised
to hear that any single
staff member would feel comfortable banning on his or her authority
alone.
Multiple levels of review exist in order to
ensure that ban reasons are
valid and appropriate.
Philippe
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 6:55 PM Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, what a cluster. How does the WMF get themselves into these
things? I
have ten
edits to en.wp since 2018 and even I could have 100% predicted
the
> entire spectrum, and scale, of the reaction here. Why are WMF staffers
so
deeply,
fundamentally disconnected from the communities where they feel
the
> right to ban people for saying "fuck arbcom"?
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:49 PM Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Amir, yes, ArbCom members must sign the WMF confidentiality agreement
for
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Confidentiality_agreement_for_nonpublic_inf…
> > )
> > , as must all functionaries (checkuser, oversight, etc.). I was on
the
>
English Wikipedia ArbCom for two years, and it was routine for us to
deal
> with sensitive, private information.
>
> Todd
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 9:46 AM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things
Fram
> > has
> > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see
how
fast
> > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I
personally,
> > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the
ban.
As
> > > simple as that.
> > >
> > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a
community
>
body
> > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things:
> > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case
> > - They are trusted by the community
> >
> > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not
sure
> > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new.
> > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?)
based
> on a
> > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm
> waiting
> > > for
> > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't
> surprise
> > > me
> > > > at all.
> > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this
kind
of
> > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia
> Movement.
> > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > >
> > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça,
> > 11/06/2019
> > > à(s) 05:45:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for this.
> > > >
> > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the
unilateralism
> and
> > > > lack of transparency.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 <
techman224(a)techman224.ca>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that
they
> > > weren't
> > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom
forwarding
a
> > > > concern to the office. [1]
> > > > >
> > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that
"local
> > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own
> > autonomous
> > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no
> complaints
> > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately.
> > > > >
> > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and
the
> >
Arbcom
> > > noticeboards.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fra…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:F…
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticebo…
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > >
> >
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commi…
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commi…
> > > >
> > > > [2]
> > >
> >
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statemen…
> > > >
> > > > Techman224
> > > >
> > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > >>
> > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herbert(a)gmail.com>
> > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
> > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT
> > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > >>
> > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked
English
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for
> unspecified
> > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement
here
> > from
> > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that
normal
> > > policy
> > > > and
> > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under
normal
> >
> >> circumstances preclude public comments.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fra…
> >
> > >>
> > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented
they're
making
> > > private
> > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels,
due
to
> > the
> > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action.
> > > >>
> > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO
into
> > "Ok,
> > > > >> responsible people following up".
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under
Office
> > > actions,
> > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private
stuff
> myself
> > at
> > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is
most
> > > > unusual
> > > > > but
> > > > > >> not unheard of.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they
had
any
public
> > > >> comment, no reply as yet.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> -george william herbert
> > > >> george.herbert(a)gmail.com
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > >> WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > >>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Amir (he/him)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
_______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
--
Philippe Beaudette
philippe(a)beaudette.me
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>