Hoi, What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.
In a previous mail you said that you think I consider people dogs that have to do my bidding. I was deeply offended by that. This makes you as far as I am concerned the wrong person to tell me what to do and the last person I care to hear from.
When you "suffer together with", it is not you who does the suffering, it is the other. What we need is no suffering but listening to the points that are made and addressing those. As long as you mistake the delivery for the message you fail. Thanks, GerardM
On 8 July 2016 at 11:23, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
I disagree in so many ways with your words that I don't even know where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin compassio (“sympathy”), from compati, past participle compassus (“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- (“together”)
- pati (“to suffer”); see passion."
I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication happens in the best possible way. The choice of words DOES matter.
And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem" is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on the way you address the people on this list.
Best,
Delphine
On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
it
puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn michael.jahn@wikimedia.de wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
understand
what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
properly,
the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words
in
the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
your
attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
you
see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
have a
problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
probably
that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and
how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
nwilson@wikimedia.org>
wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
The
American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
and
pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
that
collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
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