I second what Amir is saying, although I understand the heartbreak.
Ido
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, <wikimedia-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Andrea Zanni)
2. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Chris Keating)
3. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive
(Amir E. Aharoni)
4. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic)
5. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive
(Amir E. Aharoni)
6. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic)
7. Re: How Wikimedia could help languages to survive (Milos Rancic)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:18:53 +0200
From: Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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[snip]
For the things we could do, I quote form other people:
* encourage Wikisource, Commons, Wiktionary as primary projects for
new/endangered languages.
You could scan books or documents if the language is written, or record
audio/interviews and put that on Commons if t the language is just oral. or
we could do both.
* we can work on a "kickstart Wikisource" workflow, we are alreading
discussing this on the Wikisource mailing list (Ganesh and other Nepalese
folks are interested in developing a Nepalese Wikisource).
* we can work on
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary and try
to takle the huge challenge of a real semantic wiktionary using Wikidata.
That's a tough one, but i can't wait it to happen.
All these 3 points are mid-term and reachable. as others said, they are
just tools, and for preserving a language, not make it survive.
Aubrey
(sorry for poor english, just before coffee)
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of
these languages needs
people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I
say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is just a
tool - a very important one, but not the main one.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>de>:
> Hello Milos,
>
> welcome back.
>
> Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference:
>
> I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do,
is
to help
conserve them.
Greetings
Ting
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:25:54 +0100
From: Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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I'd certainly take quite a broad view of which languages fulfill our
mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple as
"All people who speak Y also read X, so there's no purpose putting
resources into Y".
Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I
wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to about
this.
Chris
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of
these languages needs
people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I
say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is just a
tool - a very important one, but not the main one.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>de>:
> Hello Milos,
>
> welcome back.
>
> Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference:
>
> I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do,
is
to help
conserve them.
Greetings
Ting
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:37:40 +0300
From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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I cannot cite anything, but there should be studies that show that even
though most people are "bilingual" or reported as "bilingual" in
their
regional language and another major language, they are more comfortable in
getting education in their regional language. I'm pretty sure that there
are such cases, and they should be given priority. Projects that are
focused on language revitalization per se should be given less priority
when resources are limited, even though it breaks my heart to say this.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 15:25 GMT+03:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>om>:
I'd certainly take quite a broad view of
which languages fulfill our
mission. Certainly I wouldn't be comfortable with arguments as simple as
"All people who speak Y also read X, so there's no purpose putting
resources into Y".
Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but quite a bit with Welsh; I
wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to
about
this.
Chris
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
> cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare
I
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the
sine qua non. Wikimedia is
just a
tool - a
very important one, but not the main one.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 14:20 GMT+03:00 Ting Chen <wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>de>:
> Hello Milos,
>
> welcome back.
>
> Basically I agree with your attitude, with one difference:
>
> I don't think that anyone can help languages survive. What we can do,
is
> > to help conserve them.
> >
> > Greetings
> > Ting
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:43:56 +0200
From: Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of
these languages needs
people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare I
say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the sine qua non. Wikimedia is just a
tool - a very important one, but not the main one.
In the case of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, there is a not widely known
fact that he was actually hard worker willing to listen others. He was
a villager from Serbia, sent to Austria and Germany to learn how to
help his people.
In relation to gathering spoken folk tradition, he was listening brothers
Grimm.
But, more importantly, the ideology and actually the final form of the
modern Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as well as Vuk's logistics in Vienna
were the product of a Slovene [[Jernej Kopitar]].
In our case, we need to find those hard workers all over the small
ethno-linguistic communities, explain what they should do for
themselves and give them logistics. That, of course, *if* they are
willing to that part of job for their communities and *if* they want
to build their knowledge in the form of Wikimedia projects.
BTW, I know that what I said above sounds enlightenmentish, with all
of the traps of that way of thinking. However, it's not about how they
should live. It's about how they could adopt our technology *if* they
want.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:49:28 +0300
From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
Message-ID:
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With this I agree. If this depended on me, I'd give this resources.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2014-04-22 15:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>om>:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
This is not quite correct. It's very hard,
but possible. But Wikimedia
alone cannot do it. Wikimedia can be one of the tools that are used by
the
> cultural elite, which Milos brought up. Each of these languages needs
> people like [[Pompeu Fabra]] and [[Vuk Stefanović Karadžić]] and, dare
I
> say, [[Eliezer Ben-Yehuda]]. That's the
sine qua non. Wikimedia is
just a
tool - a
very important one, but not the main one.
In the case of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, there is a not widely known
fact that he was actually hard worker willing to listen others. He was
a villager from Serbia, sent to Austria and Germany to learn how to
help his people.
In relation to gathering spoken folk tradition, he was listening brothers
Grimm.
But, more importantly, the ideology and actually the final form of the
modern Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, as well as Vuk's logistics in Vienna
were the product of a Slovene [[Jernej Kopitar]].
In our case, we need to find those hard workers all over the small
ethno-linguistic communities, explain what they should do for
themselves and give them logistics. That, of course, *if* they are
willing to that part of job for their communities and *if* they want
to build their knowledge in the form of Wikimedia projects.
BTW, I know that what I said above sounds enlightenmentish, with all
of the traps of that way of thinking. However, it's not about how they
should live. It's about how they could adopt our technology *if* they
want.
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:54:31 +0200
From: Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
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On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
<amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Projects that are focused on language
revitalization per se should be
given less priority when resources are limited, even though it breaks
my heart to say this.
I don't think that we are dealing here with limited resources. After
we show what we are doing and how successful we are (assuming that
we'll be successful, of course :D ), I am sure that funds won't be
limited just on WMF's budget.
However, we are dealing with limited resources at the beginning and,
basically, not seen scale of the job, with a lot of potential issues.
I don't think that we'll come into the stable phase in less than five
years of work. And it's true that this is enough time to see negative
changes in some of the languages.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:09:52 +0200
From: Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How Wikimedia could help languages to
survive
Message-ID:
<CAHPiQ2FOU4CQ1=_+nE22aWoz=
Py4oFp1sndc1uFPGovDeFbfWw(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Chris Keating
<chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Wikimedia UK does little work with Gaelic, but
quite a bit with Welsh; I
wonder if Robin Owain reads this list? He's a good person to speak to
about
this.
I mentioned Scots Gaelic with a good reason. Not counting languages
with so small number of speakers, that statistics for them are not
relevant and not counting Sanskrit, known to a lot of linguists,
gd.wikipedia.org is Wikipedia with the highest relative number of
active editors.
That means that it's the best starting point to raise that number from
157 per million to ~1000 per million. If WM UK would be successful in
achieving that goal, we'd know that it's possible. And we'll have some
ideas how to do that.
[1]
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/Sitemap.htm
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********************************************
--
-Ido
"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't."
(unknown)