Pessoal,
Vejam abaixo a mensagem que o Thomas Dalton compartilhou com os demais capítulos (comigo em cópia). Alguém se habilita a estabelecer contato com eles?
Abraços, Thomas
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:56:50 +0000 Subject: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? To: "Local Chapters, board and officers coordination (closed subscription)" internal-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: thomasdesouzabuckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? As things stand, that is a question with no answer since we have never actually decided (we've been rather putting it off, since it isn't an easy decision). It is on the list of chapters on meta [1], but more by default than concious choice (it was added to the list when it was still expected to become a conventional chapter, if memory serves, and just hasn't been removed). This question came up a couple of days ago in respect of the ongoing vote to decide on a process to select people for the chapter seats on the WMF board (incidentally - we're just one chapter short of a majority supporting now, so if your chapter hasn't voted yet, please do! I'd like to send it off to the WMF board for approval ASAP). I listed the chapters yet to vote and didn't list Brazil and I was asked privately if that was intentional. It was. I didn't include them because I can't see how than can participate. They don't have the necessary governance structure, as far as I know. There is no way for them to reach a collective decision (except perhaps by consensus, which seems impractical in the limited time available). Also, they cannot actually participate in the process should it be accepted, since we agreed the list of nominees would be confidential and restricted to chapter board members, which WMBR doesn't have any of. So, for purely practical reasons, WMBR cannot participate in inter-chapter decision making, which is a problem if it is a chapter.
The official requirements for chapters [2] includes: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." WMBR does not satisfy that requirement. Clearly, we must either relax that requirement or cease to consider WMBR a chapter. There are arguments in favour of both options, but my preference is to not consider WMBR a chapter. Without a legal structure, they are just incapable of doing a large number of things I consider part of the normal existence of a chapter. They cannot fundraise. They cannot enter into a trademark agreement with the WMF. They cannot effectively speak with any kind of official voice. While a great deal of useful work can be done without being able to do those things, I don't think the work of a chapter can.
It has been suggested numerous times before without anything being done, but I think we should create a new kind of structure for informal groups of Wikimedians, of which WMBR could be the first. These could be groups in a country that doesn't have or want a chapter or groups that don't have an obvious geographic association. What relationship this new structure should have with the proposed WikiPods (which, incidentally, need a better name!), I don't know, but there probably will be a relationship of some kind. We need to have a thorough discussion about what role these groups should play and what should be required of them (for example, should they be required to designate a leader or committee of leaders in order to facilitate coordination with the rest of the WM movement? should they be required to maintain a list of members? etc.).
I'm not sure what forum these discussions (regarding WMBR specifically and the concept of informal groups generally) should take place in. I think internal-l is probably suitable for the WMBR discussion (I have CC'ed Thomas de Souza Buckup from WMBR since none of them seem to be on internal-l - perhaps some of them should be, whatever form WMBR ends up taking), but the more general discussion probably needs broader discussion, but let's start here and at least work out what the questions are that need to be answered.
Everyone, please give your views.
Tom/Tango
1. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters 2. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters
Hi, Thomas.
How are you?
I believe such issues you raised should be discussed publicaly. Actually, we already started a discussion with chapcom on a IRC chat [1] and they asked us to answer some important points about the chapter model we are proposing (have you heard about it?). Soon we are sending our answer requested by chapcom.
Can we move the discussion you started bellow and Thomas Buckup forwarded to WMBR mailing list move to a public place? I really would like to read opinions from internal-l mailing list and I belive it's proper this issue be dealed as transparentely as possible.
See you!
Tom
[1] http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Relacionamento_com_a_Wikimedia_Foundation/Comit...
Em 15 de março de 2010 12:39, Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com escreveu:
Pessoal,
Vejam abaixo a mensagem que o Thomas Dalton compartilhou com os demais capítulos (comigo em cópia). Alguém se habilita a estabelecer contato com eles?
Abraços, Thomas
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:56:50 +0000 Subject: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? To: "Local Chapters, board and officers coordination (closed subscription)" internal-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: thomasdesouzabuckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? As things stand, that is a question with no answer since we have never actually decided (we've been rather putting it off, since it isn't an easy decision). It is on the list of chapters on meta [1], but more by default than concious choice (it was added to the list when it was still expected to become a conventional chapter, if memory serves, and just hasn't been removed). This question came up a couple of days ago in respect of the ongoing vote to decide on a process to select people for the chapter seats on the WMF board (incidentally - we're just one chapter short of a majority supporting now, so if your chapter hasn't voted yet, please do! I'd like to send it off to the WMF board for approval ASAP). I listed the chapters yet to vote and didn't list Brazil and I was asked privately if that was intentional. It was. I didn't include them because I can't see how than can participate. They don't have the necessary governance structure, as far as I know. There is no way for them to reach a collective decision (except perhaps by consensus, which seems impractical in the limited time available). Also, they cannot actually participate in the process should it be accepted, since we agreed the list of nominees would be confidential and restricted to chapter board members, which WMBR doesn't have any of. So, for purely practical reasons, WMBR cannot participate in inter-chapter decision making, which is a problem if it is a chapter.
The official requirements for chapters [2] includes: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." WMBR does not satisfy that requirement. Clearly, we must either relax that requirement or cease to consider WMBR a chapter. There are arguments in favour of both options, but my preference is to not consider WMBR a chapter. Without a legal structure, they are just incapable of doing a large number of things I consider part of the normal existence of a chapter. They cannot fundraise. They cannot enter into a trademark agreement with the WMF. They cannot effectively speak with any kind of official voice. While a great deal of useful work can be done without being able to do those things, I don't think the work of a chapter can.
It has been suggested numerous times before without anything being done, but I think we should create a new kind of structure for informal groups of Wikimedians, of which WMBR could be the first. These could be groups in a country that doesn't have or want a chapter or groups that don't have an obvious geographic association. What relationship this new structure should have with the proposed WikiPods (which, incidentally, need a better name!), I don't know, but there probably will be a relationship of some kind. We need to have a thorough discussion about what role these groups should play and what should be required of them (for example, should they be required to designate a leader or committee of leaders in order to facilitate coordination with the rest of the WM movement? should they be required to maintain a list of members? etc.).
I'm not sure what forum these discussions (regarding WMBR specifically and the concept of informal groups generally) should take place in. I think internal-l is probably suitable for the WMBR discussion (I have CC'ed Thomas de Souza Buckup from WMBR since none of them seem to be on internal-l - perhaps some of them should be, whatever form WMBR ends up taking), but the more general discussion probably needs broader discussion, but let's start here and at least work out what the questions are that need to be answered.
Everyone, please give your views.
Tom/Tango
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters
-- Enviado do meu celular
Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com +55 11 3477-2834 +55 11 9213-3931
- ... -...
WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l
Em 15 de março de 2010 13:45, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton137@gmail.com escreveu:
chapter model we are proposing (have you heard about it?). Soon we are sending our answer requested by chapcom.
"Have you heard about it?" It = IRC chat of WMBR valunteers and chapcom.
Caros, Pelo visto a situação é mais complexa do que a simples existência de um capítulo. A impressão é que eles sentem falta de uma estrutura de comando que se submeta às decisões da fundação ou do comitê de capítulos. É a boa e velha estrutura do Partido e nós já sabemos onde isso vai dar. A Wikipédia não existiria sem as pessoas que são voluntárias. A Fundação não existiria sem os voluntários dos projetos. Há uma tentativa de subverter o valor real das ações em nome da institucionalização da Wikimedia na economia da sociedade. Isso também se reflete nas ideias elencadas na entrevista do Chi. E alguns elementos são sintomáticos, por exemplo: - A burocratização por meio dos capítulos; - O descolamento dessas estruturas das comunidades dos projetos; - O foco em parceirias negociais ao invés de novos caminhos para voluntários; - As pessoas como causas dos problemas; - Jimbo como um figura de autoridade carismática que respalda essa estrutura; Se essas são as ideias defendidas pelos capítulos da WMF, então, na minha opinião, não devemos ser um capítulo. Para ser mais preciso, se a proposta é essa, devemos ser o lado diametralmente oposto de um capítulo. Sendo que nos aproximamos somente em função dos ideais defendidos e não pela maneira de se organizar. Eis que chegamos ao segundo ponto: a necessidade de descrever o que somos. Penso que a melhor forma é descrever pelo o que não somos. Não somos nenhum dos elementos levantados acima e que substancializam um capítulo. Somos um capítulo sem a substância de comando. Portanto, a meu ver, somos um não-capítulo, non-chapter WMBR.
Pietro
________________________________ De: Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com Para: Mailing list do Capítulo brasileiro da Wikimedia. wikimediabr-l@lists.wikimedia.org Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 15 de Março de 2010 12:39:27 Assunto: [Wikimedia Brasil] Fwd: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter?
Pessoal,
Vejam abaixo a mensagem que o Thomas Dalton compartilhou com os demais capítulos (comigo em cópia). Alguém se habilita a estabelecer contato com eles?
Abraços, Thomas
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:56:50 +0000 Subject: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? To: "Local Chapters, board and officers coordination (closed subscription)" internal-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: thomasdesouzabuckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? As things stand, that is a question with no answer since we have never actually decided (we've been rather putting it off, since it isn't an easy decision). It is on the list of chapters on meta [1], but more by default than concious choice (it was added to the list when it was still expected to become a conventional chapter, if memory serves, and just hasn't been removed). This question came up a couple of days ago in respect of the ongoing vote to decide on a process to select people for the chapter seats on the WMF board (incidentally - we're just one chapter short of a majority supporting now, so if your chapter hasn't voted yet, please do! I'd like to send it off to the WMF board for approval ASAP). I listed the chapters yet to vote and didn't list Brazil and I was asked privately if that was intentional. It was. I didn't include them because I can't see how than can participate. They don't have the necessary governance structure, as far as I know. There is no way for them to reach a collective decision (except perhaps by consensus, which seems impractical in the limited time available). Also, they cannot actually participate in the process should it be accepted, since we agreed the list of nominees would be confidential and restricted to chapter board members, which WMBR doesn't have any of. So, for purely practical reasons, WMBR cannot participate in inter-chapter decision making, which is a problem if it is a chapter.
The official requirements for chapters [2] includes: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." WMBR does not satisfy that requirement. Clearly, we must either relax that requirement or cease to consider WMBR a chapter. There are arguments in favour of both options, but my preference is to not consider WMBR a chapter. Without a legal structure, they are just incapable of doing a large number of things I consider part of the normal existence of a chapter. They cannot fundraise. They cannot enter into a trademark agreement with the WMF. They cannot effectively speak with any kind of official voice. While a great deal of useful work can be done without being able to do those things, I don't think the work of a chapter can.
It has been suggested numerous times before without anything being done, but I think we should create a new kind of structure for informal groups of Wikimedians, of which WMBR could be the first. These could be groups in a country that doesn't have or want a chapter or groups that don't have an obvious geographic association. What relationship this new structure should have with the proposed WikiPods (which, incidentally, need a better name!), I don't know, but there probably will be a relationship of some kind. We need to have a thorough discussion about what role these groups should play and what should be required of them (for example, should they be required to designate a leader or committee of leaders in order to facilitate coordination with the rest of the WM movement? should they be required to maintain a list of members? etc.).
I'm not sure what forum these discussions (regarding WMBR specifically and the concept of informal groups generally) should take place in. I think internal-l is probably suitable for the WMBR discussion (I have CC'ed Thomas de Souza Buckup from WMBR since none of them seem to be on internal-l - perhaps some of them should be, whatever form WMBR ends up taking), but the more general discussion probably needs broader discussion, but let's start here and at least work out what the questions are that need to be answered.
Everyone, please give your views.
Tom/Tango
1. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters 2. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters
Ni!
Uia, bem colocado Pietro, passa isso a limpo na wiki, acabei de criar uma seção de idéias pro encontro de capítulos, se achar muito comprido cria uma ligação.
http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Encontro_de_cap%C3%ADtulos_2010
Mas ainda tenho esperança de conseguir arrombar um buraco nessa carcaça e plantar a semente da discórdia. Alguém me comentou outro dia que esse Dalton é meio desocupado e curte ficar postando maniacamente nas listas internas sobre qualquer assunto que ele esbarra.
Abs! ~~
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 09:56 -0700, Pietro Roveri wrote:
Caros, Pelo visto a situação é mais complexa do que a simples existência de um capítulo. A impressão é que eles sentem falta de uma estrutura de comando que se submeta às decisões da fundação ou do comitê de capítulos. É a boa e velha estrutura do Partido e nós já sabemos onde isso vai dar. A Wikipédia não existiria sem as pessoas que são voluntárias. A Fundação não existiria sem os voluntários dos projetos. Há uma tentativa de subverter o valor real das ações em nome da institucionalização da Wikimedia na economia da sociedade. Isso também se reflete nas ideias elencadas na entrevista do Chi. E alguns elementos são sintomáticos, por exemplo:
- A burocratização por meio dos capítulos;
- O descolamento dessas estruturas das comunidades dos projetos;
- O foco em parceirias negociais ao invés de novos caminhos para
voluntários;
- As pessoas como causas dos problemas;
- Jimbo como um figura de autoridade carismática que respalda essa
estrutura; Se essas são as ideias defendidas pelos capítulos da WMF, então, na minha opinião, não devemos ser um capítulo. Para ser mais preciso, se a proposta é essa, devemos ser o lado diametralmente oposto de um capítulo. Sendo que nos aproximamos somente em função dos ideais defendidos e não pela maneira de se organizar. Eis que chegamos ao segundo ponto: a necessidade de descrever o que somos. Penso que a melhor forma é descrever pelo o que não somos. Não somos nenhum dos elementos levantados acima e que substancializam um capítulo. Somos um capítulo sem a substância de comando. Portanto, a meu ver, somos um não-capítulo, non-chapter WMBR.
Pietro
De: Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com Para: Mailing list do Capítulo brasileiro da Wikimedia. wikimediabr-l@lists.wikimedia.org Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 15 de Março de 2010 12:39:27 Assunto: [Wikimedia Brasil] Fwd: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter?
Pessoal,
Vejam abaixo a mensagem que o Thomas Dalton compartilhou com os demais capítulos (comigo em cópia). Alguém se habilita a estabelecer contato com eles?
Abraços, Thomas
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:56:50 +0000 Subject: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? To: "Local Chapters, board and officers coordination (closed subscription)" internal-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: thomasdesouzabuckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? As things stand, that is a question with no answer since we have never actually decided (we've been rather putting it off, since it isn't an easy decision). It is on the list of chapters on meta [1], but more by default than concious choice (it was added to the list when it was still expected to become a conventional chapter, if memory serves, and just hasn't been removed). This question came up a couple of days ago in respect of the ongoing vote to decide on a process to select people for the chapter seats on the WMF board (incidentally - we're just one chapter short of a majority supporting now, so if your chapter hasn't voted yet, please do! I'd like to send it off to the WMF board for approval ASAP). I listed the chapters yet to vote and didn't list Brazil and I was asked privately if that was intentional. It was. I didn't include them because I can't see how than can participate. They don't have the necessary governance structure, as far as I know. There is no way for them to reach a collective decision (except perhaps by consensus, which seems impractical in the limited time available). Also, they cannot actually participate in the process should it be accepted, since we agreed the list of nominees would be confidential and restricted to chapter board members, which WMBR doesn't have any of. So, for purely practical reasons, WMBR cannot participate in inter-chapter decision making, which is a problem if it is a chapter.
The official requirements for chapters [2] includes: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." WMBR does not satisfy that requirement. Clearly, we must either relax that requirement or cease to consider WMBR a chapter. There are arguments in favour of both options, but my preference is to not consider WMBR a chapter. Without a legal structure, they are just incapable of doing a large number of things I consider part of the normal existence of a chapter. They cannot fundraise. They cannot enter into a trademark agreement with the WMF. They cannot effectively speak with any kind of official voice. While a great deal of useful work can be done without being able to do those things, I don't think the work of a chapter can.
It has been suggested numerous times before without anything being done, but I think we should create a new kind of structure for informal groups of Wikimedians, of which WMBR could be the first. These could be groups in a country that doesn't have or want a chapter or groups that don't have an obvious geographic association. What relationship this new structure should have with the proposed WikiPods (which, incidentally, need a better name!), I don't know, but there probably will be a relationship of some kind. We need to have a thorough discussion about what role these groups should play and what should be required of them (for example, should they be required to designate a leader or committee of leaders in order to facilitate coordination with the rest of the WM movement? should they be required to maintain a list of members? etc.).
I'm not sure what forum these discussions (regarding WMBR specifically and the concept of informal groups generally) should take place in. I think internal-l is probably suitable for the WMBR discussion (I have CC'ed Thomas de Souza Buckup from WMBR since none of them seem to be on internal-l - perhaps some of them should be, whatever form WMBR ends up taking), but the more general discussion probably needs broader discussion, but let's start here and at least work out what the questions are that need to be answered.
Everyone, please give your views.
Tom/Tango
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters
-- Enviado do meu celular
Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com +55 11 3477-2834 +55 11 9213-3931
- ... -...
WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l
Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l
A posição do Pietro tem o meu apoio, se isso vale alguma coisa. hugs
Em 15 de março de 2010 15:58, Alexandre Hannud Abdo abdo@member.fsf.orgescreveu:
Ni!
Uia, bem colocado Pietro, passa isso a limpo na wiki, acabei de criar uma seção de idéias pro encontro de capítulos, se achar muito comprido cria uma ligação.
http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Encontro_de_cap%C3%ADtulos_2010http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Encontro_de_cap%C3%ADtulos_2010
Mas ainda tenho esperança de conseguir arrombar um buraco nessa carcaça e plantar a semente da discórdia. Alguém me comentou outro dia que esse Dalton é meio desocupado e curte ficar postando maniacamente nas listas internas sobre qualquer assunto que ele esbarra.
Abs! ~~
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 09:56 -0700, Pietro Roveri wrote:
Caros, Pelo visto a situação é mais complexa do que a simples existência de um capítulo. A impressão é que eles sentem falta de uma estrutura de comando que se submeta às decisões da fundação ou do comitê de capítulos. É a boa e velha estrutura do Partido e nós já sabemos onde isso vai dar. A Wikipédia não existiria sem as pessoas que são voluntárias. A Fundação não existiria sem os voluntários dos projetos. Há uma tentativa de subverter o valor real das ações em nome da institucionalização da Wikimedia na economia da sociedade. Isso também se reflete nas ideias elencadas na entrevista do Chi. E alguns elementos são sintomáticos, por exemplo:
- A burocratização por meio dos capítulos;
- O descolamento dessas estruturas das comunidades dos projetos;
- O foco em parceirias negociais ao invés de novos caminhos para
voluntários;
- As pessoas como causas dos problemas;
- Jimbo como um figura de autoridade carismática que respalda essa
estrutura; Se essas são as ideias defendidas pelos capítulos da WMF, então, na minha opinião, não devemos ser um capítulo. Para ser mais preciso, se a proposta é essa, devemos ser o lado diametralmente oposto de um capítulo. Sendo que nos aproximamos somente em função dos ideais defendidos e não pela maneira de se organizar. Eis que chegamos ao segundo ponto: a necessidade de descrever o que somos. Penso que a melhor forma é descrever pelo o que não somos. Não somos nenhum dos elementos levantados acima e que substancializam um capítulo. Somos um capítulo sem a substância de comando. Portanto, a meu ver, somos um não-capítulo, non-chapter WMBR.
Pietro
De: Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com Para: Mailing list do Capítulo brasileiro da Wikimedia. wikimediabr-l@lists.wikimedia.org Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 15 de Março de 2010 12:39:27 Assunto: [Wikimedia Brasil] Fwd: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter?
Pessoal,
Vejam abaixo a mensagem que o Thomas Dalton compartilhou com os demais capítulos (comigo em cópia). Alguém se habilita a estabelecer contato com eles?
Abraços, Thomas
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:56:50 +0000 Subject: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? To: "Local Chapters, board and officers coordination (closed subscription)" internal-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: thomasdesouzabuckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? As things stand, that is a question with no answer since we have never actually decided (we've been rather putting it off, since it isn't an easy decision). It is on the list of chapters on meta [1], but more by default than concious choice (it was added to the list when it was still expected to become a conventional chapter, if memory serves, and just hasn't been removed). This question came up a couple of days ago in respect of the ongoing vote to decide on a process to select people for the chapter seats on the WMF board (incidentally - we're just one chapter short of a majority supporting now, so if your chapter hasn't voted yet, please do! I'd like to send it off to the WMF board for approval ASAP). I listed the chapters yet to vote and didn't list Brazil and I was asked privately if that was intentional. It was. I didn't include them because I can't see how than can participate. They don't have the necessary governance structure, as far as I know. There is no way for them to reach a collective decision (except perhaps by consensus, which seems impractical in the limited time available). Also, they cannot actually participate in the process should it be accepted, since we agreed the list of nominees would be confidential and restricted to chapter board members, which WMBR doesn't have any of. So, for purely practical reasons, WMBR cannot participate in inter-chapter decision making, which is a problem if it is a chapter.
The official requirements for chapters [2] includes: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." WMBR does not satisfy that requirement. Clearly, we must either relax that requirement or cease to consider WMBR a chapter. There are arguments in favour of both options, but my preference is to not consider WMBR a chapter. Without a legal structure, they are just incapable of doing a large number of things I consider part of the normal existence of a chapter. They cannot fundraise. They cannot enter into a trademark agreement with the WMF. They cannot effectively speak with any kind of official voice. While a great deal of useful work can be done without being able to do those things, I don't think the work of a chapter can.
It has been suggested numerous times before without anything being done, but I think we should create a new kind of structure for informal groups of Wikimedians, of which WMBR could be the first. These could be groups in a country that doesn't have or want a chapter or groups that don't have an obvious geographic association. What relationship this new structure should have with the proposed WikiPods (which, incidentally, need a better name!), I don't know, but there probably will be a relationship of some kind. We need to have a thorough discussion about what role these groups should play and what should be required of them (for example, should they be required to designate a leader or committee of leaders in order to facilitate coordination with the rest of the WM movement? should they be required to maintain a list of members? etc.).
I'm not sure what forum these discussions (regarding WMBR specifically and the concept of informal groups generally) should take place in. I think internal-l is probably suitable for the WMBR discussion (I have CC'ed Thomas de Souza Buckup from WMBR since none of them seem to be on internal-l - perhaps some of them should be, whatever form WMBR ends up taking), but the more general discussion probably needs broader discussion, but let's start here and at least work out what the questions are that need to be answered.
Everyone, please give your views.
Tom/Tango
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters
-- Enviado do meu celular
Thomas de Souza Buckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com +55 11 3477-2834 +55 11 9213-3931
- ... -...
WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l
Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes _______________________________________________ WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l
WikimediaBR-l mailing list WikimediaBR-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediabr-l
TSB,
Aproveitando que você está nessa internal-l (que bom que está!), acho que seria legal encaminhar ali algo no sentido da resposta do Tom, que foi muito boa.
Isto é:
""" Nós estamos ativamente trabalhando com o chapcom para definir a situação e não participaremos nem aprovamos nenhuma discussão que não ocorra através dos meios mais públicos disponíveis. Em breve encaminharemos no meta um documento requisitado pelo chapcom que busca esclarecer uma série de dúvidas a nosso respeito. Por hora os links relevantes são:
http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Relacionamento_com_a_Wikimedia_Foundation/Comit...
http://br.wikimedia.org/wiki/Relacionamento_com_a_Wikimedia_Foundation/Comit... """
Talvez acrescentando que a questão da participação na eleição é secundária e vemos ela como algo a ser resolvido num momento posterior do processo. Mas, não sei como os demais pensam disso.
Acho que é a única resposta que podemos oferecer no momento.
Alguma outra idéia?
Abraço!
ale ~~
On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 12:39 -0300, Thomas de Souza Buckup wrote:
Pessoal,
Vejam abaixo a mensagem que o Thomas Dalton compartilhou com os demais capítulos (comigo em cópia). Alguém se habilita a estabelecer contato com eles?
Abraços, Thomas
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:56:50 +0000 Subject: Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? To: "Local Chapters, board and officers coordination (closed subscription)" internal-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: thomasdesouzabuckup thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
Is Wikimedia Brasil a chapter? As things stand, that is a question with no answer since we have never actually decided (we've been rather putting it off, since it isn't an easy decision). It is on the list of chapters on meta [1], but more by default than concious choice (it was added to the list when it was still expected to become a conventional chapter, if memory serves, and just hasn't been removed). This question came up a couple of days ago in respect of the ongoing vote to decide on a process to select people for the chapter seats on the WMF board (incidentally - we're just one chapter short of a majority supporting now, so if your chapter hasn't voted yet, please do! I'd like to send it off to the WMF board for approval ASAP). I listed the chapters yet to vote and didn't list Brazil and I was asked privately if that was intentional. It was. I didn't include them because I can't see how than can participate. They don't have the necessary governance structure, as far as I know. There is no way for them to reach a collective decision (except perhaps by consensus, which seems impractical in the limited time available). Also, they cannot actually participate in the process should it be accepted, since we agreed the list of nominees would be confidential and restricted to chapter board members, which WMBR doesn't have any of. So, for purely practical reasons, WMBR cannot participate in inter-chapter decision making, which is a problem if it is a chapter.
The official requirements for chapters [2] includes: "The chapter must have a legal structure/corporation that is legally independent from the Wikimedia Foundation." WMBR does not satisfy that requirement. Clearly, we must either relax that requirement or cease to consider WMBR a chapter. There are arguments in favour of both options, but my preference is to not consider WMBR a chapter. Without a legal structure, they are just incapable of doing a large number of things I consider part of the normal existence of a chapter. They cannot fundraise. They cannot enter into a trademark agreement with the WMF. They cannot effectively speak with any kind of official voice. While a great deal of useful work can be done without being able to do those things, I don't think the work of a chapter can.
It has been suggested numerous times before without anything being done, but I think we should create a new kind of structure for informal groups of Wikimedians, of which WMBR could be the first. These could be groups in a country that doesn't have or want a chapter or groups that don't have an obvious geographic association. What relationship this new structure should have with the proposed WikiPods (which, incidentally, need a better name!), I don't know, but there probably will be a relationship of some kind. We need to have a thorough discussion about what role these groups should play and what should be required of them (for example, should they be required to designate a leader or committee of leaders in order to facilitate coordination with the rest of the WM movement? should they be required to maintain a list of members? etc.).
I'm not sure what forum these discussions (regarding WMBR specifically and the concept of informal groups generally) should take place in. I think internal-l is probably suitable for the WMBR discussion (I have CC'ed Thomas de Souza Buckup from WMBR since none of them seem to be on internal-l - perhaps some of them should be, whatever form WMBR ends up taking), but the more general discussion probably needs broader discussion, but let's start here and at least work out what the questions are that need to be answered.
Everyone, please give your views.
Tom/Tango
wikimediabr-l@lists.wikimedia.org