I propose a real-life case to all Foundation Board candidates. I expect that all candidates are on this mailing list naturally.
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Say, you are on the board of Wikimedia Foundation.
A user from a rather minor wikipedia contact the foundation mailing list, to ask for help on setting a local association. This user is currently working on the status of the future association with her peers, and naturally should set status that are in coherence with the Foundation principles themselves.
Now, it so happens that when you were a candidate a while ago, and while candidating, you indicated as PART of your platform, that indeed helping smaller wikipedias were an issue to you, and that you would HELP set local chapters.
Indeed, the user of the minor wikipedia is VERY encouraged by the fact you put local chapter considerations in your plateform, so that she knows it is IMPORTANT to you, so of course, she is confident you will answer and bring help.
So, here she is, bringing the issue on the mailing list, and asking help...
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Question : what do you do ?
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--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: ...
A user from a rather minor wikipedia contact the foundation mailing list, to ask for help on setting a local association ... Question : what do you do ?
I would suggest she read [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]].
Oh... except that page doesn't exist yet. :)
It would be great if those who have been working on starting up the French and German associations could help to create such a page. It could be a record of their experiences and a collection of advice for all future users wanting to set up chapters in their own local area.
I don't yet know how much influence the board will need to have in setting these up. Should they have rules on exactly what the associations are allowed to do? How can these be enforceable? Perhaps a discussion on this list on what the relationship between board and association should be might help such a page to develop. The [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]] page also needs to include the Foundation's principles and advice on what associations need to do to meet those. How detailed should these be? I would not like to see the board have an undue amount of influence over these. I see it more as something to support them where needed rather than being there to determine exactly what a chapter should do.
Have the people working on the French and German ones got any views on whether board input would have helped them? Or is it felt that the board should just be there to officially approve them after the details have been finalised on the local Wikimedia project?
Angela. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Angela
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--- Angela sloog77@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote: ...
A user from a rather minor wikipedia contact the foundation mailing list, to ask for help on
setting
a local association ... Question : what do you do ?
I would suggest she read [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]].
Oh... except that page doesn't exist yet. :)
It would be great if those who have been working on starting up the French and German associations could help to create such a page. It could be a record of their experiences and a collection of advice for all future users wanting to set up chapters in their own local area.
I don't yet know how much influence the board will need to have in setting these up. Should they have rules on exactly what the associations are allowed to do? How can these be enforceable? Perhaps a discussion on this list on what the relationship between board and association should be might help such a page to develop. The [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]] page also needs to include the Foundation's principles and advice on what associations need to do to meet those. How detailed should these be? I would not like to see the board have an undue amount of influence over these. I see it more as something to support them where needed rather than being there to determine exactly what a chapter should do.
Have the people working on the French and German ones got any views on whether board input would have helped them? Or is it felt that the board should just be there to officially approve them after the details have been finalised on the local Wikimedia project?
On one hand, I think the foundation board should have little influence in local chapter daily activity, once the chapter has agreed to follow some common principles.
However, there are some areas of overlapping, as the financial ones. And there is currently little discussion about this, that I would like to see appear in time. Donations collected by local associations, in the name of Wikimedia, should also participate in part, to the maintenance of our technical framework, or purchase of domain names for example. This financial relationship should be established quite early on in the association life.
I also think we should be globally aware of efforts made world wide and try to have balance. For example, should money collected in a french association be only used in France, or try to finance for example distribution in a country such as Switzerland. I would say "yes". But then, a distribution in Switzerland (or promotion or whatever) should be for efficiency a collaboration with projects in italian and german as well perhaps (for example). Hence, it is a project wide issue.
Another point I can think of, is the relationship between a paying member in a local chapter and a paying member in the foundation. Should they participate twice ? Just mentionning as well, that should fees be established, they should take into account the png and financial level of each country. 16 dollars is fine in many countries, it is not in many others.
Incidently, all this would highly require help from professional translators, who would be able to help local chapter and Foundation communicate with certainties on legal issues.
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--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
... Another point I can think of, is the relationship between a paying member in a local chapter and a paying member in the foundation. Should they participate twice ? Just mentionning as well, that should fees be established, they should take into account the png and financial level of each country. 16 dollars is fine in many countries, it is not in many others.
I really think that be a chapter member a person would first have to be a dues-paying Wikimedia member. We could have membership dues start at $10 a year - less than the cost of a cheap lunch for two. The amount a chapter member has to pay to a chapter is really up to the chapter.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
... Another point I can think of, is the relationship between a paying member in a local chapter and a paying member in the foundation. Should they participate twice ? Just mentionning as well, that should fees be established, they should take into account the png and financial level of each
country.
16 dollars is fine in many countries, it is not in many others.
I really think that be a chapter member a person would first have to be a dues-paying Wikimedia member. We could have membership dues start at $10 a year
- less than the cost of a cheap lunch for two. The
amount a chapter member has to pay to a chapter is really up to the chapter.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
Dear Daniel,
$10 a year
- less than the cost of a cheap lunch for two.
In Madagascar, 10 dollars is feeding a full family for several months.
Set the amount of the annual fee at 10 dollars whatever the nationality of the member will ensure that the participation to Wikimedia information spreading *all over the world* is an activity limited to "rich members" living in developped countries members.
Most french people from France could afford 10 dollars/euros a year. But I would be *embarassed* to request that amount to an Algerian student, and I would *blush in shame* to request that to a person in Madagascar.
That goes for local chapter as well as Foundation.
Our participation from third world countries is currently terribly low. Many of those people are among those who lack terribly of information. You and I, do not need *more* information really, we need perhaps better information, we need less biaised information, but not *more*. Actually, we have often too much information.
And as for myself, I consider that the most important role Wikipedia in particular, could have, is to bring information to those who do not have access to it. In our countries, the information will very likely be distributed through the internet mostly. That is the best way to keep it updated. And that will be cheap.
In less developped countries, the issue is not even daily updated information, it is just information in itself. And it is more relevant to think that part of the distribution will be paper or cd. Which means we need people to BE in the country of distribution probably. We need physical persons over there. These people will have to be members of the Foundation so as to participate a minimum to discussion and votes on these distribution projects.
I would blush in shame to ask them 10 dollars to have the opportunity to help when 10 dollars is the average monthly revenue of a person in that country.
Ihmo (but I am aware it is likely to be controversial); no participant willing to help *should* have to pay money to do so. People already give a lot of their time, energy and such. That is enough that they do not need to pay on top. We are such an organisation that I am sure we could make it without forcing people to pay to help. That is a very capitalist approach to do so. I am sure that people would just make donations naturally if they feel it can help.
And last winter donation call support this.
That is what is done in my kids school, which is catholics, and ask money to help. It is not mandatory; people are suggested to help, they are suggested a certain amount, if they give that amount, they perhaps receive 4 times a year a report paper, and that is it. People can give recommanded amount. People can give more. People can give nothing. They are still part of us.
And that works quite well.
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Anthere-
I would blush in shame to ask them 10 dollars to have the opportunity to help when 10 dollars is the average monthly revenue of a person in that country.
I absolutely agree with you, and that is why I have strong reservations about any dues system and have made "no special privileges" part of my election platform. This especially refers to special privileges over Wikimedia content or project organization.
Part of the reason I am candidating for Contributing Member Advocate is to prevent us from screwing things up too badly in that department. What I could support is an official list of "Wikimedia Sponsors" that is prominently linked, analogous to the page history for content contributors. Maybe contributing members could also set tasks in a bounty system, but only because they'd be the ones footing the bills.
Regards,
Erik
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
... In Madagascar, 10 dollars is feeding a full family for several months.
And even in Russia many workers make about $100 a month. I'm well aware of that and of course we would make provisions for nations where the cost of living is so much less. But due to the very low Internet usage Madagascar, I sadly don't forsee us having a chapter there any time soon. But we will when we are as big as National Geographic is now.
Set the amount of the annual fee at 10 dollars whatever the nationality of the member will ensure that the participation to Wikimedia information spreading *all over the world* is an activity limited to "rich members" living in developped countries members.
I was thinking more along the lines of setting it at a small amount - the cost of a lunch for two. I mistakingly put a dollar figure on that to illustrate my point.
That goes for local chapter as well as Foundation.
Again, what the local chapter needs in terms of a dues is up to the chapter. But it is very important that each member actually help further the goals of the chapter and the foundation. A don't want the chapters to be social clubs - thus the requirement to contribute at least in some way.
Our participation from third world countries is currently terribly low. Many of those people are among those who lack terribly of information. You and I, do not need *more* information really, we need perhaps better information, we need less biaised information, but not *more*. Actually, we have often too much information.
That is why I support putting Wikimedia content on donated computers, CDs and paper. I also support the creation of a Wikimedia University, so that people from all over the world will have access to very low cost education.
And as for myself, I consider that the most important role Wikipedia in particular, could have, is to bring information to those who do not have access to it. In our countries, the information will very likely be distributed through the internet mostly. That is the best way to keep it updated. And that will be cheap.
The Internet infrastructure in those nations needs to be built first. Sadly, I'm not sure if that is in our short to mid-term mandate, but we could eventually help it along.
In less developped countries, the issue is not even daily updated information, it is just information in itself. And it is more relevant to think that part of the distribution will be paper or cd. Which means we need people to BE in the country of distribution probably. We need physical persons over there. These people will have to be members of the Foundation so as to participate a minimum to discussion and votes on these distribution projects.
Interesting point. We could have volunteer time (when directed at Wikimedia Foundation-related activities) count toward dues. Yes, I think that is a very good idea.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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Hi all,
Le Saturday 29 May 2004 17:52, Angela a écrit :
A user from a rather minor wikipedia contact the foundation mailing list, to ask for help on setting a local association ... Question : what do you do ?
I would suggest she read [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]].
Oh... except that page doesn't exist yet. :)
It would be great if those who have been working on starting up the French and German associations could help to create such a page. It could be a record of their experiences and a collection of advice for all future users wanting to set up chapters in their own local area.
I started such a page. Help welcome. ;o) I am probably the one most interested by setting up a local chapter of the foundation in France.
Yann
I don't yet know how much influence the board will need to have in setting these up. Should they have rules on exactly what the associations are allowed to do? How can these be enforceable? Perhaps a discussion on this list on what the relationship between board and association should be might help such a page to develop. The [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]] page also needs to include the Foundation's principles and advice on what associations need to do to meet those. How detailed should these be? I would not like to see the board have an undue amount of influence over these. I see it more as something to support them where needed rather than being there to determine exactly what a chapter should do.
Have the people working on the French and German ones got any views on whether board input would have helped them? Or is it felt that the board should just be there to officially approve them after the details have been finalised on the local Wikimedia project?
--- Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
Hi all,
Le Saturday 29 May 2004 17:52, Angela a �crit :
A user from a rather minor wikipedia contact the foundation mailing list, to ask for help on
setting
a local association ... Question : what do you do ?
I would suggest she read [[m:Starting up a local Wikimedia chapter]].
Oh... except that page doesn't exist yet. :)
It would be great if those who have been working
on
starting up the French and German associations
could
help to create such a page. It could be a record
of
their experiences and a collection of advice for
all
future users wanting to set up chapters in their
own
local area.
I started such a page. Help welcome. ;o)
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starting_up_a_local_Wikimedia_chapter
Sorry Yann, but the page in that condition is not gonna help a lot. And just starting it and waiting for people to fill it will not solve the problem easily.
I am probably the one most interested by setting up a local chapter of the foundation in France.
Please, explain to the foundation list, exactly why *you* want to start an association. Those who want one have various reasons to do so (see Jeff comment on les amis de Wikipedia), so I would like that you explain the best you can what your goals are :
Please, explain what is your vision of what the french association should be in the short term (immediate needs it will fullfil)
Explain then what you think it should become and aim at (say in the 5 years or 10 years)
And explain what you intend to do in the association (what your role is, which position you wish to hold)
And finally, explain which other positions or abilities are needed to complement your ow abilities, and should absolutely be necessary to have for the association to work properly
Anthere
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--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Say, you are on the board of Wikimedia Foundation.
A user from a rather minor wikipedia contact the foundation mailing list, to ask for help on setting a local association. This user is currently working on the status of the future association with her peers, and naturally should set status that are in coherence with the Foundation principles themselves.
Now, it so happens that when you were a candidate a while ago, and while candidating, you indicated as PART of your platform, that indeed helping smaller wikipedias were an issue to you, and that you would HELP set local chapters.
Indeed, the user of the minor wikipedia is VERY encouraged by the fact you put local chapter considerations in your plateform, so that she knows it is IMPORTANT to you, so of course, she is confident you will answer and bring help.
So, here she is, bringing the issue on the mailing list, and asking help...
Question : what do you do ?
We need to first look at the formation of the German chapter/association in order to develop rules and procedures for setting up chapters. Once that is done we could refer the person to that documentation and provide assistance as needed. There would, at the least, have to be enough dues-paying Wikimedia members in that person's area in order to make it possible to have a viable chapter. Once that is the case, and enough of those members indicate a willingness to actually participate in a chapter, then the foundation could provide some seed money to set-up the legal framework. Then to stay a Wikimedia chapter a *minimal* set of guidelines must be adhered to (such as keeping a certain set number of active chapter members and reporting chapter-specific finances and activities to the foundation). I would also like to see each chapter president have at least a honorary role in the foundation itself (perhaps even as honoray trustees).
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
Question : what do you do ?
Thanks for answering Mav
We need to first look at the formation of the German chapter/association in order to develop rules and procedures for setting up chapters. Once that is done we could refer the person to that documentation and provide assistance as needed.
Nod. That rejoin Angela suggestion to set a page on meta to "start a local chapter".
This said, that seems to imply that the German association is a good model.
There would, at the least, have to be enough
dues-paying Wikimedia members in that person's area in order to make it possible to have a viable chapter.
That is an interesting point. Is it mandatory that there are enough dues-paying members, or would not it be more important that there are enough motivated people in that country ? It is not necessary mandatory that money is collected from members, however, it is essential that enough motivated people set and manage the association properly ihmo
Once that is the case, and enough of those
members indicate a willingness to actually participate in a chapter, then the foundation could provide some seed money to set-up the legal framework.
Yes, I fully agree with this. It would be good that Wikimedia foundation provides the starting money, rather than that foundators of the association are asked to pay on top of their free work for this to proceed. I am dubious of the move that *requires* people to pay to participate to Wikimedia distribution
Then to stay a Wikimedia
chapter a *minimal* set of guidelines must be adhered to (such as keeping a certain set number of active chapter members and reporting chapter-specific finances and activities to the foundation).
It would be probably enough to have all associations agree to follow Wikimedia mission status. Which is why I proposed that this one is carefull reviewed, so that we could weave proper links between all associations
I would
also like to see each chapter president have at least a honorary role in the foundation itself (perhaps even as honoray trustees).
I think it would be correct that some of the money collected by the chapter goes to the Foundation, if only to participate to our common frame (servers, bandwith...). But then it is certainly fair, that local chapter participate to the decisions in terms of budget.
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