Erik Moeller wrote:
Jimbo is subscribed to the list
Yes, but until today, every time I've looked at the list of subscribers, Jimbo's email was marked as having list delivery disabled. So as far as I know, he hasn't been reading the messages on this list for most or all of its existence. That's not necessarily a criticism of Jimbo, who has many things to attend to, and can't be everywhere at once. But when we collectively, consciously or unconsciously, only discuss policy issues "in his presence", our behavior gives the impression of Jimbo as a MeatBall:GodKing. A number of people have criticized the way these mailing lists operate, and some object to participating as a result. When you can observe differences between one mailing list and another for reasons like this, it unfortunately gives credence to the criticism that the mailing list is "like a king's court" (quoting someone else's phrase). I think the mailing lists are useful, but we need to be aware of appearances and not reinforce the image of a cabal.
but he started the thread on wikipedia-l, so I replied there.
Nothing wrong with that, and possibly Jimbo also started the thread there because you posted the original idea there (before this list ever existed). Another possible approach is to shift the discussion to the appropriate mailing list. Given that some people have equated this list with the defunct and rarely used wikilegal-l, I think it worthwhile to put a little extra effort into seeing that this list actually gets used for its intended purpose.
Is there any particular reason for this thread to be in French?
Anthere wrote in French, so I replied in French. Since she preferred to use her native language, for whatever reasons, I considered it a small show of courtesy and good will to reply in the same language, since I'm able to. I would be happy to translate into English for anyone who asks.
foundation-l and wikipedia-l are multilingual to allow people to communicate who otherwise could not
Now that I look closely I see you added something similar to [[Wikipedia:Mailing lists]] a couple months ago, and apparently nobody objected. That seems like a pretty restrictive formulation to me, as if we're only allowing multilingual discussion as a sort of concession, and you _must_ use English unless you cannot.
For an organization as diverse and multilingual as Wikimedia, I think we should take a more friendly attitude toward the use of other languages. After all, for many languages there are also various people using the list who can take a stab at translation. I would just as soon see a person post in their native language, and rely on someone else with good English skills to translate, than try and sort out from their broken English what they really meant. Basically, I think it would be more in keeping with the spirit of the project, if we allow people to post to project-wide mailing lists in whatever language they choose. Many will probably prefer to use English, but they don't need to be told to do so, and by not telling them we do less to intimidate those who feel less secure in their English.
Well, I've raised my concerns, and we can discuss it further on the talk page.
not to have semi-private exchanges on a public list.
I see discussions all the time on the mailing lists that are basically conversations involving a very small handful of people. I don't see anything wrong with that, any more than there's anything wrong with two people engaging in a conversation on a talk page, which is equally public. Whoever is interested can always join in, and I'm happy to shift between my limited selection of languages to accommodate other participants.
--Michael Snow
Michael-
Yes, but until today, every time I've looked at the list of subscribers, Jimbo's email was marked as having list delivery disabled.
I didn't know that and I didn't change the settings, maybe Jimbo did.
our behavior gives the impression of Jimbo as a MeatBall:GodKing.
.. which he effectively is. He has, however, gradually relinquished power to open decision making processes. Until all the necessary processes exist and are sanctioned by the Board, we should continue to bring important developments to the attention of Jimbo/the Board to assure at least some basic legitimacy.
foundation-l and wikipedia-l are multilingual to allow people to communicate who otherwise could not
Now that I look closely I see you added something similar to [[Wikipedia:Mailing lists]] a couple months ago, and apparently nobody objected. That seems like a pretty restrictive formulation to me, as if we're only allowing multilingual discussion as a sort of concession, and you _must_ use English unless you cannot.
The point of language is to communicate. When we use language, we should use the one which allows us to communicate best. If a plausible argument can be made that in this instance, and in others, French was a better way to communicate than English, then I'm open to hearing it. It seems to me that the much more realistic explanation is that some people prefer to switch to a language which they think other people won't understand when they want to make comments which they don't want other people to read. And that, it also seems to me, is clearly against the spirit of open communication.
It's like when you're in a cafe with a bunch of friends, and suddenly two of them start having a conversation in Russian. Notably, only one of the people involved in the conversation is actually Russian. You don't speak Russian, nor do most of your friends, and the couple provides no explanation for switching languages; you only hear a few words you know and can deduce that the conversation is a direct continuation of the earlier English one.
Is such an unexplained switch courteous? Is it useful as a "demonstration of the multilingual nature of the meeting"? Or is it irritating, perhaps even hostile, to others? Using English as our language of choice is not some imperialist dictate. It is a choice that is made purely for pragmatic reasons. I am not a native English speaker, but I support this choice because I want *open* *communication*. I would appreciate it if we could all agree to make our conversations as open as possible. When that is not desired, there is always e-mail.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
our behavior gives the impression of Jimbo as a MeatBall:GodKing.
.. which he effectively is. He has, however, gradually relinquished power to open decision making processes.
And everyone should be aware of a few things in that sort of matter...
1. I do not like being GodKing, or being viewed as GodKing. The extent to which I ever was, was simply a fact that happened, due to the fact of my founding the Nupedia/Wikipedia community and funding it and the nature of software and system administration and so on. It takes time for community institutions to arise, and in the early days there was no alternative but for me to be a sort of final arbiter.
2. It is my intention to continue relinquishing power over time, and of course the pace may not always be to everyone's liking, but I think it's important that we consciously manage the process rather than me just walking away from my responsibilities in this area and leaving anarchy instead.
3. On a personal level, it's important to realize how big a part of my life this is. It's my full-time job. If you add up my assets (house, cars, etc.) and substract my liabilities (mortgage, other debts) and then compare my net worth to the amount that I've spent on Wikipedia, you would see that it's no exaggeration to say that I've sunk my life savings many times over into this project.
This is not self-sacrifice, something that I don't believe in. But it is a commitment, a big one, and as a result, if I'm ever slow in relinquishing anything, it is because, well, this is *everything* to me.
My goals for the Wikimedia Foundation are similar to, say, the International Red Cross. This means that in time, I will be a historical footnote. At the centennial celebrations in January 2101, my portrait will hang on the fall of the foundation offices in Geneva, New York, and Tokyo. (Randomly chosen cities!) :-)
We are still a very young project, a very young organization. Everything seems to move faster in Internet time, but my plans extend across the next 50 or 500 years, not just the next 6 months.
--Jimbo
--- Michael Snow wikipedia@earthlink.net wrote: [large snip]
I see discussions all the time on the mailing lists that are basically conversations involving a very small handful of people. I don't see
anything wrong with that, any more than there's anything wrong with two people engaging in a conversation on a talk page, which is equally public. Whoever is interested can always join in, and I'm happy to shift between my limited selection of languages to accommodate other participants.
I agree with you Michael. Sometimes it is easiest for someone to express themselves in their mother tongue. The mailing lists are archived so they can be translated later on. Semi-private convesations should be on mailing lists too, because they are archived. This allows for better understancing of issues in the long run because more of the thoughts that went into them are available publiclcy.
Furthermore, we're all grownups (or some pretend to be) so let's not bicker.
Peace and WikiLove, man.
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/
On May 26, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Christopher Mahan wrote:
--- Michael Snow wikipedia@earthlink.net wrote: [large snip]
I see discussions all the time on the mailing lists that are basically conversations involving a very small handful of people. I don't see
anything wrong with that, any more than there's anything wrong with two people engaging in a conversation on a talk page, which is equally public. Whoever is interested can always join in, and I'm happy to shift between my limited selection of languages to accommodate other participants.
I agree with you Michael. Sometimes it is easiest for someone to express themselves in their mother tongue.
Since (I assume) all of us speak English, let's say that anyone who feels comfortable in English would be best served to write in English. If they wold prefer their mother tongue, it would be nice to include a (human) translation, or at least a summary. If the user doesn't (possibly unable to), another user might step up and do the translation, in the WikiSpirit. No use posting Google translations, I think, since we can all get them ourselves.
Peter
-- ---<>--- -- A house without walls cannot fall. Help build the world's largest encyclopedia at Wikipedia.org -- ---<>--- --
Michael Snow wrote:
Yes, but until today, every time I've looked at the list of subscribers, Jimbo's email was marked as having list delivery disabled. So as far as I know, he hasn't been reading the messages on this list for most or all of its existence.
That's correct, but I didn't even know this until yesterday. I remember when, once upon a time, my mail was bouncing for a day, and all the mailing lists automatically marked me as delivery disabled. I re-enabled the major lists, but overlooked this one, which had at that time almost no traffic I think.
Then, I thought that discussion here had fizzled. I had no idea.
That's not necessarily a criticism of Jimbo, who has many things to attend to, and can't be everywhere at once.
But absolutely nothing (except my family!) takes precedence with me over Wikimedia Foundation policy. It's my full-time job, and even within Wikipedia, anything else I do is tangential.
But when we collectively, consciously or unconsciously, only discuss policy issues "in his presence", our behavior gives the impression of Jimbo as a MeatBall:GodKing. A number of people have criticized the way these mailing lists operate, and some object to participating as a result.
It is my opinion that the people who refuse to participate in the mailing lists for this kind of alleged reason are being silly and counter-productive. The objection is nonsense.
The mailing lists are unmoderated, and even people who are banned or who don't edit Wikipedia are heartily invited to join the discussions. The only people who have been kicked off of the mailing lists were kicked off basically for spamming the list with dozens of SHOUTING POSTS THAT SAID NOTHING.
I think the mailing lists are useful, but we need to be aware of appearances and not reinforce the image of a cabal.
I do agree with this, but what should we do? The mailing lists are wide open to the public, public archives, easy subscription, unmoderated. If my participation causes people to say that the lists are like a "King's Court", what do you recommend that I do about it?
--Jimbo
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org