It writes in Japanese. I am not good at English. time is necessary for the reply.
I say, user "山吹色の御菓子" of Wikipedia Japanese version. It questions as case of the entire Wikipedia. There is Wikipedia 's principles in Wikipedia English version. Can this be freely changed by the participant's discretion in each language version? Is it possible to make the one that principle and guidelines that existed in Wikipedia English version was purely Copy and Paste principle and guidelines even if the community doesn't agree? Is principle and guidelines in which the community doesn't agree effective?
In Wikipedia Japanese version, the document with the template of principle and guidelines up to the present time was operated from the start without obtaining the mutual agreement of the community. In Wikipedia Japanese version, the participant was doing principle and guidelines without permission until 2007. The community simply solved by the decision by majority without understanding Wikipedia 's principles until February, 2010.
kigen2700nen@gmail.com wrote:
In Wikipedia Japanese version, the document with the template of principle and guidelines up to the present time was operated from the start without obtaining the mutual agreement of the community. In Wikipedia Japanese version, the participant was doing principle and guidelines without permission until 2007. The community simply solved by the decision by majority without understanding Wikipedia 's principles until February, 2010
In general the principles of Wikipedia are the same for any communities.
Neutral point of view, for example, is a basic principle which could not be changed.
Any community could change everything which is connected with the application of these principles. The users decide the better way to reach these principles.
If a community cannot applies the template of another community probably it's time to stop and to think which community has taken a bad way and who is applying principles decided internally but completely different from those of Wikipedia.
What you are saying about Japanese Wikipedia it's very dangerous because the community *cannot rewrite* the Wikipedia's principles.
In my opinion the Japanese question should be investigated in detail.
Ilario
Hi from jawp.
山吹色の御菓子(kigen2700nen) 's question is
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/190708#190708
Wikipedia英語版にはWikipedia's principlesがあります。 これは、各言語版に於いて参加者の裁量で自由に変更することができるのですか？
Wikipedia英語版にあるprinciple and guidelinesを純粋にコピーアンドペーストしたものを、 コミュニティの合意が無くてもprinciple and guidelinesにすること可能ですか？
コミュニティの合意が無いprinciple and guidelinesは有効ですか？
policy とguidelineは各言語版のコミュニティの合意を得ずに、英語版からコピーアンドペーストし、policyまたはguidelineのテンプレートを付けた文書は有効ですか？日本語版ではスタートしたときからコミュニティの合意を得ず、policy またはguidelineのテンプレートを付けた文書を使用していますが、これらは英語版と違反していても有効なのですか。
translation:(I'm not good at english, too)
There is a wikipedia's principle on enwp. (maybe "wikipedia's policys". [[Wikipedia:Principles]] redirect to Wikipedia:Five pillars)
Can editers change Wikipedia's principles(policys) at the discretion of the participants of local project?
Can anyone make an document copy-and-pasted from principles(policys) or guideline in enwp to policy or guideline in jawp without consensus ?
Is policy or guideline without consensus valid ?
background
User:Kurz translated [[en:Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#Role]], [[en:Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#Life cycle]] and bring into [[Wikipedia:基本方針とガイドライン]](policy in jawp equivalent to "Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines") at 2010-02-09T10:05:15. http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?&diff=30440756&oldid=30389805
山吹色の御菓子(kigen2700nen) insists that all policys and guidelines which are not obviously established consensus on its notepage must be repealed.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?&oldid=30855009 (talkpage of project in jawp equivalent to "Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Policy matters")
In my opinion,
Even though policys and guidelines which are not obviously established consensus on its notepage, we should hold them as policy or guideline.
Many of trancelated policyes and guidelines reflect established consensus in enwp, and also reflect consensus in jawp as a result of the editing process after translated.
Needless to say, anyone can challenge for changing policy or guideline respectively.
Regards
Ks aka 98 http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%A9%E7%94%A8%E8%80%85:Ks_aka_98 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ks_aka_98
2010/3/6 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com:
kigen2700nen@gmail.com wrote:
In Wikipedia Japanese version, the document with the template of principle and guidelines up to the present time was operated from the start without obtaining the mutual agreement of the community. In Wikipedia Japanese version, the participant was doing principle and guidelines without permission until 2007. The community simply solved by the decision by majority without understanding Wikipedia 's principles until February, 2010
In general the principles of Wikipedia are the same for any communities.
Neutral point of view, for example, is a basic principle which could not be changed.
Any community could change everything which is connected with the application of these principles. The users decide the better way to reach these principles.
If a community cannot applies the template of another community probably it's time to stop and to think which community has taken a bad way and who is applying principles decided internally but completely different from those of Wikipedia.
What you are saying about Japanese Wikipedia it's very dangerous because the community *cannot rewrite* the Wikipedia's principles.
In my opinion the Japanese question should be investigated in detail.
Ilario
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2010/3/6 ksaka98 ksaka98@gmail.com:
Hi from jawp.
山吹色の御菓子(kigen2700nen) 's question is
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/190708#190708
Wikipedia英語版にはWikipedia's principlesがあります。 これは、各言語版に於いて参加者の裁量で自由に変更することができるのですか？
Wikipedia英語版にあるprinciple and guidelinesを純粋にコピーアンドペーストしたものを、 コミュニティの合意が無くてもprinciple and guidelinesにすること可能ですか？
コミュニティの合意が無いprinciple and guidelinesは有効ですか？
policy とguidelineは各言語版のコミュニティの合意を得ずに、英語版からコピーアンドペーストし、policyまたはguidelineのテンプレートを付けた文書は有効ですか？日本語版ではスタートしたときからコミュニティの合意を得ず、policy またはguidelineのテンプレートを付けた文書を使用していますが、これらは英語版と違反していても有効なのですか。
translation:(I'm not good at english, too)
There is a wikipedia's principle on enwp. (maybe "wikipedia's policys". [[Wikipedia:Principles]] redirect to Wikipedia:Five pillars)
Can editers change Wikipedia's principles(policys) at the discretion of the participants of local project?
Can anyone make an document copy-and-pasted from principles(policys) or guideline in enwp to policy or guideline in jawp without consensus ?
Is policy or guideline without consensus valid ?
I think that the rough idea of policies included in "five pillars" should be applied in all Wikipedias, but it does not mean that they have to be applied as direct translations - i.e each project has a right to rephrase the text of these policies according to its historical and cultural background - as long as the core meaning of the rule is not changed. Bear in mind that five pillars were also adopted in English Wikipedia gradually - ie. the text of them changed over the time substantially and it is even changing right now.
All other policies can but not need to be applied. At least in Polish Wikipedia it works in such a way that we look at policies on English, German and other Wikipedias and apply some of them directly, some after rephrasing some we do not apply at all, and we have some regulation which are Polish-specific only :-)
2010年3月7日0:21 Tomasz Ganicz polimerek@gmail.com:
2010/3/6 ksaka98 ksaka98@gmail.com:
Hi from jawp.
山吹色の御菓子(kigen2700nen) 's question is
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/190708#190708
Wikipedia英語版にはWikipedia's principlesがあります。 これは、各言語版に於いて参加者の裁量で自由に変更することができるのですか？
Wikipedia英語版にあるprinciple and guidelinesを純粋にコピーアンドペーストしたものを、 コミュニティの合意が無くてもprinciple and guidelinesにすること可能ですか？
コミュニティの合意が無いprinciple and guidelinesは有効ですか？
policy
とguidelineは各言語版のコミュニティの合意を得ずに、英語版からコピーアンドペーストし、policyまたはguidelineのテンプレートを付けた文書は有効ですか？日本語版ではスタートしたときからコミュニティの合意を得ず、policy
またはguidelineのテンプレートを付けた文書を使用していますが、これらは英語版と違反していても有効なのですか。
translation:(I'm not good at english, too)
There is a wikipedia's principle on enwp. (maybe "wikipedia's policys". [[Wikipedia:Principles]] redirect to Wikipedia:Five pillars)
Can editers change Wikipedia's principles(policys) at the discretion of the participants of local project?
Can anyone make an document copy-and-pasted from principles(policys) or guideline in enwp to policy or guideline in jawp without consensus ?
Is policy or guideline without consensus valid ?
I think that the rough idea of policies included in "five pillars" should be applied in all Wikipedias, but it does not mean that they have to be applied as direct translations - i.e each project has a right to rephrase the text of these policies according to its historical and cultural background - as long as the core meaning of the rule is not changed. Bear in mind that five pillars were also adopted in English Wikipedia gradually - ie. the text of them changed over the time substantially and it is even changing right now.
All other policies can but not need to be applied. At least in Polish Wikipedia it works in such a way that we look at policies on English, German and other Wikipedias and apply some of them directly, some after rephrasing some we do not apply at all, and we have some regulation which are Polish-specific only :-)
-- Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/ http://www.ptchem.lodz.pl/en/TomaszGanicz.html
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Does Wikipedia's principles need consensus of the community? There is not consensus of the community, but does somebody pass if filled out the page with "Policy"?
Does Wikipedia's principles need consensus of the community? There is not consensus of the community, but does somebody pass if filled out the page with "Policy"?
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