I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more relevant list. Thread so far at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
Erik
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say: * Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of the Dutch Wikipedia * The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch Wikipedia * At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia * The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
Thank you.
-- Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association has a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any influence to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project, but as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will come troubles.
So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't have any official position within WMF.
Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Moeller" eloquence@gmail.com To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more relevant list. Thread so far at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
Erik
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
- Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
Wikipedia
- At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
Thank you.
-- Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hi
Which are the reasons why the Foundation and the association have little support ? People ? Bylaws ? Goals ?
Ant
Johan Bos wrote:
I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association has a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any influence to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project, but as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will come troubles.
So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't have any official position within WMF.
Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Moeller" eloquence@gmail.com To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more relevant list. Thread so far at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
Erik
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
- Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
Wikipedia
- At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
Thank you.
-- Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators take decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some admin power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is that most members of that specific group of moderators are active in the foundation. The processes to form the foundation are very unclear and most of the important decisions have been taken during IRL meetings. Only people who visited those meetings had any influence at the forming of the foundation and the association.
Now the danger is that members of the Dutch foundation take certain decisions, maybe under pressure of a Dutch judge or organisation or maybe just there own POV. And then they use there power to force their decision. Abuse like that will be a serious risk when de foundation would get any power.
A lot of Dutch Wikipedians feel that de Dutch foundation is trying to take over the power at our Wikipedia and they are grumbling about it.
Greetings,
Johan Bos
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthere" Anthere9@yahoo.com To: foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
Hi
Which are the reasons why the Foundation and the association have little support ? People ? Bylaws ? Goals ?
Ant
Johan Bos wrote:
I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association has a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any influence to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project, but as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will come troubles.
So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't have any official position within WMF.
Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Moeller" eloquence@gmail.com To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more relevant list. Thread so far at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
Erik
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
- Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
Wikipedia
- At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
Thank you.
-- Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, With some suprise I have seen from a distance a situation arise by people who did not involve themselves during the setup of the Dutch chapter. If anything I can vouch for the fact that one of the guiding principles during the setup of the chapter was to maximise the community aspect.
This idea of there being a group that secretly decide on "everyting and the kitchen sink" is odd. The meetings have all been public. They were all announced in advance and this suggestion is without a basis. I am in an excellent position to vouch for this. I have been at several of these meetings.
The cool thing is, a "vereniging" and even a "stichting" have been set up. The preparations are being done so that there will be a bank-account and that there can be members of the "vereniging". There will be a meeting where members can do the member thing. I sincerely hope that this will be an opportunity for people to meet in a reasonable way and most definetly to start doing what a chapter is ment for. Have an organisational background for the activities that we want to do.
Thanks, GerardM
On 4/18/06, Johan Bos skatinghacker@hotmail.com wrote:
I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators take decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some admin power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is that most members of that specific group of moderators are active in the foundation. The processes to form the foundation are very unclear and most of the important decisions have been taken during IRL meetings. Only people who visited those meetings had any influence at the forming of the foundation and the association.
Now the danger is that members of the Dutch foundation take certain decisions, maybe under pressure of a Dutch judge or organisation or maybe just there own POV. And then they use there power to force their decision. Abuse like that will be a serious risk when de foundation would get any power.
A lot of Dutch Wikipedians feel that de Dutch foundation is trying to take over the power at our Wikipedia and they are grumbling about it.
Greetings,
Johan Bos
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthere" Anthere9@yahoo.com To: foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
Hi
Which are the reasons why the Foundation and the association have little support ? People ? Bylaws ? Goals ?
Ant
Johan Bos wrote:
I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association has a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any influence to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project, but as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will come troubles.
So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't have any official position within WMF.
Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Moeller" eloquence@gmail.com To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more relevant list. Thread so far at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
Erik
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
- Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
Wikipedia
- At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
- The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
Thank you.
-- Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Johan Bos schreef:
I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators take decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some admin power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is that
[cut]
The Dutch Wikipedia is not paradise. But you give the impression that there is a group of admins on the Dutch Wikipedia who are behaving strongly against the wishes of the community. And that those are now also controlling those new chapters.
This is highly incorrect.
The Dutch Wikipedia is probably the only Wikipedia who has such easy and extensive procedures who makes it nearly impossible for a group of sysops to behave strongly against the wishes of the community.
There is a de-sysop procedure who every user can start against a sysop. And this lead to vote of confidence where the sysop needs at least 75% in favor to stay sysop.
Besides this is there also the reconfirmation procedure. *Every* sysop needs to be re-confirmed every year. When there is objection made against a sysop that sysop needs to survive a vote where the need also to get 75% in favor.
Currently on the Dutch Wikipedia the 2th round of the re-confirmation procedure of the 2th quarter the year is active.
Those are the sysops where there was made objections against in the 1th round. The include "Oscar" and "Galwaygirl" who are key-members of the board of those new Dutch Wikimedia chapters.
You can see in this vote the have large support from the community; http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Regelingen_rond_moderatoren/Bevestigi...
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