Greetings,
Following up on the reading strategy. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Strategy/Strategy_Process/Testing The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early engagement in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
This aims at allowing a public space, where editors, staff and readers, can submit and discuss ideas around our how to enhance user interaction with content and with each other on Wikipedia. We plan to run this for 4 weeks, where after two weeks we can start to narrow down ideas and discuss them in details. Please check the link below, and feel free to submit ideas, ask questions or leave a comment, and help us spread the word.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_Interaction_Consultation
Best, Moushira
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early engagement in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that there is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
* http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/ * https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html * http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere, it doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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But...but...Moushira just acknowledged the point. Gracefully, I think. Can't we simply trust her to incorporate the feedback into future announcements?
For anybody who had trouble discerning what the consultation is about, its first question makes it clear:
"How can we make Wikipedia more interactive for Readers?"
Great question. -Pete
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that there is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
- http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
- https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere, it doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
actually
fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hello everyone ,
I agree with Fae and Craig, It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that jargon form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho) It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea , like a depressed patient always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon because it has precise meaning i wouls never associate it with idea generation or brainstorming what is wrong with using those words as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a word form other jargon show a lack of creativity of innovation
I would like to call on the communications dept to start - and i can just picture someone for that task - a campaign at WMF to ban jargon "simply says it better"
derek
On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that there is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
- http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
- https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere, it doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem in the future, for which I laud her.
If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle derekvgiroulle@wikimedia.be wrote:
Hello everyone ,
I agree with Fae and Craig, It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that jargon form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho) It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea , like a depressed patient always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon because it has precise meaning i wouls never associate it with idea generation or brainstorming what is wrong with using those words as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a word form other jargon show a lack of creativity of innovation
I would like to call on the communications dept to start - and i can just picture someone for that task - a campaign at WMF to ban jargon "simply says it better"
derek
On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the particular terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that there is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular is a particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
- http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/26/pf/corporate-jargon/
- https://hbr.org/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're on the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere, it doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Kind regards, *Derek V. Giroulle* Wikimedia Belgium vzw. Treasurer Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels M: derekvgiroulle@wikimedia.be T: +32 494 134134 F: +32 3666 2700
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Hello again,
I see that we have an interesting input here.
Let me add further context, not to give any excuses but to put things in their perspective. This has nothing do to with corporate or jargon Silicon Valley culture, as I simply don't live in the US, and I don't have any corporate background :). I come from a design background, and while I am not a native English speaker, I didn't encounter any previous misunderstanding with using this word, in context, in the last decade, even with other non-native speakers.
I now see the relevance of psychology in the use of the word "ideation" (where regardless of the article quality, we have the word used in both context https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Ideation_%28creative_process%29&limit=500still) . Given my non-medical background, and my previous use of the word, without failing to deliver what I needed to express at any point earlier, I, therefore, made a choice to include it in my email, which I wrote by myself without peer review.
I see the point around the Foundation's seemingly repeated pattern of using words (or abbreviation) that aren't widely understood outside their context, or by a broader audience. While this is a valid concern, I just wanted to point out that our case here, is a matter of me failing to choose a term that isn't apparently jargon, because sometimes it is tricky to decide.
Again, this is a good lesson on the importance of simplifying and globalizing my choice of words (oh, globalize could be jargon..no, not again ;).
Point taken, thanks again everyone.
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem in the future, for which I laud her.
If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle derekvgiroulle@wikimedia.be wrote:
Hello everyone ,
I agree with Fae and Craig, It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
jargon
form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho) It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea , like
a
depressed patient always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon because it has precise meaning i wouls never associate it with idea generation or brainstorming what is wrong with using those words as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
word
form other jargon show a lack of creativity of innovation
I would like to call on the communications dept to start - and i can
just
picture someone for that task - a campaign at WMF to ban jargon "simply says it better"
derek
On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is that you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the
particular
terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that
there
is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular
is a
particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while we're
on
the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere,
it
doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design
context.
Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to
these
fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant;
I
think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <melamrawy@wikimedia.org
wrote: ...
The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement
in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see more 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate America, especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any other, it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Kind regards, *Derek V. Giroulle* Wikimedia Belgium vzw. Treasurer Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels M: derekvgiroulle@wikimedia.be T: +32 494 134134 F: +32 3666 2700
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Thanks Moushira :-) On 16 Mar 2016 16:55, "Moushira Elamrawy" melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello again,
I see that we have an interesting input here.
Let me add further context, not to give any excuses but to put things in their perspective. This has nothing do to with corporate or jargon Silicon Valley culture, as I simply don't live in the US, and I don't have any corporate background :). I come from a design background, and while I am not a native English speaker, I didn't encounter any previous misunderstanding with using this word, in context, in the last decade, even with other non-native speakers.
I now see the relevance of psychology in the use of the word "ideation" (where regardless of the article quality, we have the word used in both context < https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Ideation_%2...
still)
. Given my non-medical background, and my previous use of the word, without failing to deliver what I needed to express at any point earlier, I, therefore, made a choice to include it in my email, which I wrote by myself without peer review.
I see the point around the Foundation's seemingly repeated pattern of using words (or abbreviation) that aren't widely understood outside their context, or by a broader audience. While this is a valid concern, I just wanted to point out that our case here, is a matter of me failing to choose a term that isn't apparently jargon, because sometimes it is tricky to decide.
Again, this is a good lesson on the importance of simplifying and globalizing my choice of words (oh, globalize could be jargon..no, not again ;).
Point taken, thanks again everyone.
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem in the future, for which I laud her.
If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle derekvgiroulle@wikimedia.be wrote:
Hello everyone ,
I agree with Fae and Craig, It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
jargon
form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho) It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea ,
like
a
depressed patient always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon because it has precise meaning i wouls never associate it with idea generation or brainstorming what
is
wrong with using those words as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
word
form other jargon show a lack of creativity of innovation
I would like to call on the communications dept to start - and i can
just
picture someone for that task - a campaign at WMF to ban jargon "simply says it better"
derek
On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is
that
you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the
particular
terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that
there
is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular
is a
particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while
we're
on
the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere,
it
doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <melamrawy@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design
context.
Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to
these
fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are
relevant;
I
think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <
melamrawy@wikimedia.org
wrote: ... > > The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early
engagement > > in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users.
...
Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see
more
'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate
America,
especially by those without English as their first language.
Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any
other,
it just stood out today.
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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Hello Moushira,
Iḿ sorry i didn't say this explicitely , i was n persoanlly attacking you i was as you point out focussing the critic at jargon use in the WMF
thanks derek
On 16-03-16 17:58, Richard Symonds wrote:
Thanks Moushira :-) On 16 Mar 2016 16:55, "Moushira Elamrawy" melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello again,
I see that we have an interesting input here.
Let me add further context, not to give any excuses but to put things in their perspective. This has nothing do to with corporate or jargon Silicon Valley culture, as I simply don't live in the US, and I don't have any corporate background :). I come from a design background, and while I am not a native English speaker, I didn't encounter any previous misunderstanding with using this word, in context, in the last decade, even with other non-native speakers.
I now see the relevance of psychology in the use of the word "ideation" (where regardless of the article quality, we have the word used in both context < https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Ideation_%2...
still)
. Given my non-medical background, and my previous use of the word, without failing to deliver what I needed to express at any point earlier, I, therefore, made a choice to include it in my email, which I wrote by myself without peer review.
I see the point around the Foundation's seemingly repeated pattern of using words (or abbreviation) that aren't widely understood outside their context, or by a broader audience. While this is a valid concern, I just wanted to point out that our case here, is a matter of me failing to choose a term that isn't apparently jargon, because sometimes it is tricky to decide.
Again, this is a good lesson on the importance of simplifying and globalizing my choice of words (oh, globalize could be jargon..no, not again ;).
Point taken, thanks again everyone.
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
While I agree with people that it's an uncommon and exclusionary phrase (and a confusing one!) it seems like Moushira fully acknowledges this and is going to work harder on this sort of problem in the future, for which I laud her.
If we want to have a general conversation about language choice at the WMF, broadly-construed, it seems like it would be best to kick off a new thread to avoid the appearance of a pileon.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Derek V.Giroulle derekvgiroulle@wikimedia.be wrote:
Hello everyone ,
I agree with Fae and Craig, It's foreign jargon especially in this context , and on top of that
jargon
form a professional background where the term has been misused (imho) It has in my jargon the connotation of obsessively recurring idea ,
like
a
depressed patient always coming back to ideas of suicide : the suicidal ideation It would be the only place where i would allow fosuch reductive jargon because it has precise meaning i wouls never associate it with idea generation or brainstorming what
is
wrong with using those words as craig indicated : cringe worthy (business) jargon the mere fact that product design (business ing general) is stealing a
word
form other jargon show a lack of creativity of innovation
I would like to call on the communications dept to start - and i can
just
picture someone for that task - a campaign at WMF to ban jargon "simply says it better"
derek
On 16-03-16 04:39, Craig Franklin wrote:
Hi Moushira,
The problem when you use jargon like "ideation" in this context is
that
you're essentially excluding anyone who isn't familiar with the
particular
terminology used in the field. Especially so when there are plenty of plain-English alternatives that can be used in its place. Note that
there
is a whole bunch of thought from experts that that word in particular
is a
particularly obnoxious piece of jargon:
http://www.lifed.com/10-cringeworthy-business-jargon-examples-that-should-be...
It's hardly the worst example I've seen out of the WMF, but while
we're
on
the topic it should be pointed out. Just because it's used elsewhere,
it
doesn't mean that the WMF has to fall into the same trap.
Cheers, Craig
On 16 March 2016 at 10:07, Moushira Elamrawy <melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design
context.
Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to
these
fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are
relevant;
I
think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it actually fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
Moushira
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:51 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
> On 15 March 2016 at 22:33, Moushira Elamrawy <
melamrawy@wikimedia.org
> wrote: > ... >> The reading team is launching an experiment that supports early > engagement >> in ideation phase, with a wide variety of users. > ... > > Hi, sorry to target your email with a more general observation, > however there seems to be a lot of odd jargon in Wikimedia > announcements over the last few months. It would be great to see
more
> 'official' emails aimed at volunteers, written in plain and > grammatically complete English. Phrases like "ideation phase" may be > frequently used during meetings at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, > but are unlikely to be heard in real life by volunteer contributors, > and are unlikely to be easily understood outside of corporate
America,
> especially by those without English as their first language. > > Sorry again about picking at your announcement rather than any
other,
> it just stood out today. > > Thanks, > Fae > -- > faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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On 16 Mar 2016 07:07, "Moushira Elamrawy" melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
actually
fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
That is a woeful article, for a useless word with no fixed meaning. As far as I can tell the component all usages agree on is "thinking" is involved. See the many comments on the talk page.
A good test for whether a word should be used in communications to a wide audience is how widely translated a Wikipedia article is. If it would be translated to a different concept in other languages, it isn't a good concept for this type of communication.
-- John
This is not he only case where I lately have observed a tendency to use words which is more or less unintelligent for non-English speaking people.
The phrase "Inspire Campaign on content curation & review" includes a number of complicated words. I commented upon this [1] to Jethro who only stated these were correct words, seemingly uninterested the effect on reders of using those type of words. And now this message has started to occurs in a banner, where a Swede has made an extremely bad translation making it even more unintelligent. Our village pump is full of people very upset of this, also as we usually do not translate banner messages. In our discussion it has been put forward these messages has done more harm to the brand then any of the problems lately around WMF and BoT (these entities are rather vaguely known her)
And I expect most do as I, just refuse to take in any message from WMF, not seeing they are interested to communicate with us (or get input from us), only enwp
Anders
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:I_JethroBT_%28WMF%29&...
Den 2016-03-16 kl. 05:40, skrev John Mark Vandenberg:
On 16 Mar 2016 07:07, "Moushira Elamrawy" melamrawy@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello Fae,
Ideation phase [0], is a term widely used in product and design context. Now, I see your point around how volunteers who are not related to these fields, might not be familiar with it. Possibly something like, idea generation, or brainstorming could have replaced it.
I am not sure though if the factors that you have listed are relevant; I think it is a matter of using a word in a certain context where it
actually
fits, without realizing how a broader audience would perceive it.
In any case, thanks for the note :-)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideation_%28creative_process%29
That is a woeful article, for a useless word with no fixed meaning. As far as I can tell the component all usages agree on is "thinking" is involved. See the many comments on the talk page.
A good test for whether a word should be used in communications to a wide audience is how widely translated a Wikipedia article is. If it would be translated to a different concept in other languages, it isn't a good concept for this type of communication.
-- John _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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