Snipped long debate:
For all the comments about preserving languages, no--that is not the goal of Wikipedia or any of the other WMF project. In other words, if there is one Eyak speaker left, it is not the goal of the WMF to teach people Eyak so that they can then write encyclopedias and other reference works in Eyak for future generations of a vibrant Eyak community to be.
With reference to Upper, Lower, Middle, or Lost in Limbo Sorbian (or any other such language), while I quote from memory, the foundation's goal is to create reference works for people "in their own languages." In other words, as long as there is a viable body of speakers, it would merit a wikipedia and other projects. NB, that is not to say that we should put fundraising campaigns on hold until the fundraising interface is translated into Sorbian, etc.
Danny
PS. Marie Smith Jones, the last native Eyak speaker, died less than a month ago, on January 21, 2008, so the above example is moot. But, you get my point ... (See _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Smith_Jones_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Smith_Jones) )
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On Feb 8, 2008 7:43 PM, daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
With reference to Upper, Lower, Middle, or Lost in Limbo Sorbian (or any other such language), while I quote from memory, the foundation's goal is to create reference works for people "in their own languages." In other words, as long as there is a viable body of speakers, it would merit a wikipedia and other projects.
But if all Lower Sorbian speakers are also German speakers, then German is just as much "their language" as Lower Sorbian is. Presenting information in German to a group of people which all understand German should satisfy this mission, regardless of what other languages those people might also happen to know.
In cases where the speaking population of one language are a perfect subset of the speaking population of another language, we should always provide projects in the larger language, and never provide projects in the smaller one. The only time we should provide projects in both of two languages that perfectly overlap is when there is no clear superset/subset relationship between them.
Noble-minded people who try to do all good to all people spread themselves too thin and end up doing no good to anybody. We can't pursue all just causes, and attempting to will dilute our core mission, and will make us less effective at doing anything. A little bit of focus and efficiency, while it means that we need to abandon certain causes, will enable us to do more good to more people for more time then the alternative.
--Andrew Whitworth
Andrew Whitworth wrote:
On Feb 8, 2008 7:43 PM, daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
With reference to Upper, Lower, Middle, or Lost in Limbo Sorbian (or any other such language), while I quote from memory, the foundation's goal is to create reference works for people "in their own languages." In other words, as long as there is a viable body of speakers, it would merit a wikipedia and other projects.
But if all Lower Sorbian speakers are also German speakers, then German is just as much "their language" as Lower Sorbian is. Presenting information in German to a group of people which all understand German should satisfy this mission, regardless of what other languages those people might also happen to know.
In cases where the speaking population of one language are a perfect subset of the speaking population of another language, we should always provide projects in the larger language, and never provide projects in the smaller one. The only time we should provide projects in both of two languages that perfectly overlap is when there is no clear superset/subset relationship between them.
You have missed one key detail: not all of the people who speak both languages are equally willing to contribute to a Wikipedia one of them.
Some Lusatian Serbs, even if they know German perfectly, may feel more inclined to contribute to a Wikipedia in their language than they are to German Wikipedia; similarly, some may feel more inclined to read it. They may see it as a revival of their culture, an opportunity to practice their language, or have some entirely different motivation; the end result will be that they will create free knowledge that did not exist before, which is the goal of the Foundation.
I know that there exists information in, for example, Serbian Wikipedia that does not exist in English Wikipedia. And that includes not only information about Serbian-related topics, but about general topics as well. (I could give examples if anyone is interested.) And that includes information introduced by people who are speakers of a foreign language, and who could contribute it to another Wikipedia, but they chose to do it in Serbian, and it is unlikely that they would contribute to a Wikipedia in another language at all.
Hoi. When you speak multiple languages, there are things you can express really well in one but not in another language. The notion that all languages are equal is wrong. Consequently there are no "perfect" sub or supersets of languages. When you state that "we should" I would prefer that you speak for yourself because I do not feel included and I could not disagree with you more.
When you talk about "noble minded people", you are talking about people who do their own thing. Who volunteer to do their own thing. It is not for you or anyone to determine what they can or cannot do. It does not detract from what you do, it does not make what you do any less relevant. When you argue that we have to abandon certain causes, I would ask you what causes you are involved in are you willing to abandon. If you value the causes that you are involved in too highly to abandon any of them, I ask you why should others. If there are causes that you would abandon, my question would be why are you involved in them in the first place, would it not make sense for you to concentrate on what is more relevant to you? Having abandoned a cause, does it make a difference to you when others persevere with the cause that you abandoned?
I have moved on from Wikipedia and largely from Wiktionary. I am now involved in languages, localisations and opening up data. I am concentrating more on the things that are truly valuable and dear to me. The continued success of Betawiki is more relevant to me then having writing about all the fish swimming in the rivers and ponds of the Benelux. You should leave it to the "noble minded" people what they do. When they do a good job they prepare the way for others to follow. They do you know. :) and consequently what you perceive as a problem is no problem. It sorts itself out and in the end it needs neither you not me.
Thanks, GerardM
On Feb 9, 2008 6:32 PM, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@gmail.com wrote:
On Feb 8, 2008 7:43 PM, daniwo59@aol.com wrote:
With reference to Upper, Lower, Middle, or Lost in Limbo Sorbian (or any other such language), while I quote from memory, the foundation's goal
is to
create reference works for people "in their own languages." In other
words, as
long as there is a viable body of speakers, it would merit a wikipedia
and
other projects.
But if all Lower Sorbian speakers are also German speakers, then German is just as much "their language" as Lower Sorbian is. Presenting information in German to a group of people which all understand German should satisfy this mission, regardless of what other languages those people might also happen to know.
In cases where the speaking population of one language are a perfect subset of the speaking population of another language, we should always provide projects in the larger language, and never provide projects in the smaller one. The only time we should provide projects in both of two languages that perfectly overlap is when there is no clear superset/subset relationship between them.
Noble-minded people who try to do all good to all people spread themselves too thin and end up doing no good to anybody. We can't pursue all just causes, and attempting to will dilute our core mission, and will make us less effective at doing anything. A little bit of focus and efficiency, while it means that we need to abandon certain causes, will enable us to do more good to more people for more time then the alternative.
--Andrew Whitworth
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