There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an IRS requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an IRS requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine
The relevant blog post, for context: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/30/wikimedia-foundation-now-accepts-bitco...
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency, it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an IRS requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK. Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like real estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food for a food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency, it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there are several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an
IRS
requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK with the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for the information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with U.S. laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are required to send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over that threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK. Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like real estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food for a food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency, it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there
are
several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that an
IRS
requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK
with
the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are required to offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right? Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the receipt. You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for the information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with U.S. laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are required to send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over that threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK. Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like real estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food for
a
food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency, it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but there
are
several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that
an
IRS
requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK
with
the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated. It's possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest is possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the safest approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional expertise, so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are required to offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right? Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the receipt. You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for the information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with U.S. laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are required to send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over that threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK. Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like real estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food
for
a
food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than currency, it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but
there
are
several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is that
an
IRS
requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry. AFAIK
with
the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I grant that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the heirarchy made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options, and did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the primary attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't offer to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like to think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated. It's possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest is possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the safest approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional expertise, so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right? Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the receipt. You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for the information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with
U.S.
laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are required
to
send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a certain amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over
that
threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors AFAIK. Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like
real
estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of food
for
a
food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
currency,
it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but
there
are
several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is
that
an
IRS
requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry.
AFAIK
with
the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small contributions.
Thanks, Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and reasonable discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem like a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
Pete
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I grant that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the heirarchy made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options, and did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the primary attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't offer to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like to think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated.
It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest is possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines, right? Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for the information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with
U.S.
laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are
required
to
send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
certain
amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin over
that
threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
AFAIK.
Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like
real
estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
food
for
a
food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
Hi Pine,
The IRS link includes the note that:
"A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the
IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
currency,
it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting requirements.
Andrew.
On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote: > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted but
there
are
> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. Is
that
an
IRS > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry.
AFAIK
with
> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for small > contributions. > > Thanks, > Pine > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and reasonable discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem like a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
Pete
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I grant that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the heirarchy made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options, and did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the primary attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
offer
to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
to
think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's complicated.
It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you suggest
is
possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those judgment calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
right?
Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever the threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for the information was the safest approach and best enables to comply with
U.S.
laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are
required
to
send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
certain
amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
over
that
threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
AFAIK.
Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules like
real
estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
food
for
a
food bank don't require identification info. Pine On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
wrote:
> Hi Pine, > > The IRS link includes the note that: > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
information
> reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
property."
> > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because the
IRS
> treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
currency,
> it triggers different - and presumably more complex - reporting > requirements. > > Andrew. > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote: > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
but
there
are > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
Is
that
an
> IRS > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog entry.
AFAIK
with > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
small
> > contributions. > > > > Thanks, > > Pine > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > -- > - Andrew Gray > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hi Pine-
The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year. If we were to limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then we would not be compliance. Instead of trying to create a spike for every scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
Best, Lisa
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
reasonable
discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
like
a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
Pete
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
grant
that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
heirarchy
made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
and
did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
primary
attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
offer
to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
to
think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
complicated.
It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
suggest
is
possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
judgment
calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
right?
Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
the
threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for
the
information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
with
U.S.
laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are
required
to
send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
certain
amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
over
that
threshold.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
> Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
AFAIK.
> Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules
like
real
> estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
food
for
a > food bank don't require identification info. > Pine > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
wrote: > > > Hi Pine, > > > > The IRS link includes the note that: > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
information
> > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
property."
> > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
the
IRS
> > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
currency,
> > it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
reporting
> > requirements. > > > > Andrew. > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote: > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
but
there
> are > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
Is
that
an > > IRS > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
entry.
AFAIK
> with > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
small
> > > contributions. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Pine > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > -- > > - Andrew Gray > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hi Lisa, Thank you for the explanation. Can you post that in the blog entry and on the donation page? I understand how calculating annual limits might be more trouble than it's worth from WMF's point of view. Thanks, Pine
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Lisa Gruwell lgruwell@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Pine-
The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year. If we were to limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then we would not be compliance. Instead of trying to create a spike for every scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
Best, Lisa
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At
the
moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement
in
the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything.
(:
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
reasonable
discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
like
a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to
use
this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective
privacy
practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
Pete
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
grant
that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
heirarchy
made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
and
did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
primary
attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority.
I'm
asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
offer
to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I
like
to
think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com
wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
complicated.
It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
suggest
is
possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
judgment
calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
right?
Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
the
threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
> As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for
the
> information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
with
U.S.
> laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are
required
to
> send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
certain
> amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
over
that
> threshold. > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
AFAIK.
> > Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules
like
real
> > estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can
of
food
for > a > > food bank don't require identification info. > > Pine > > On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> wrote: > > > > > Hi Pine, > > > > > > The IRS link includes the note that: > > > > > > "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
information
> > > reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
property."
> > > > > > - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
the
IRS
> > > treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
currency,
> > > it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
reporting
> > > requirements. > > > > > > Andrew. > > > > > > On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote: > > > > There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is
accepted
but
there > > are > > > > several questions about why WMF is asking for contact
info.
Is
that
> an > > > IRS > > > > requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
entry.
AFAIK
> > with > > > > the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
small
> > > > contributions. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Pine > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > - Andrew Gray > > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hi Lisa,
I admit I am not an expert in U.S. tax law, so I could be entirely misinterpreting it. But my read of the IRS instructions are that donors who donate more than $5000 in one year must be reported, *except* that any single donation of less than $1000 may be discounted when calculating this total. This seems to be a provision to reduce compliance costs, so small donations don't have to be tracked when determining when a donor has donated more than $5000 in a year.
Does that mean Wikimedia could accept donations of less than $1000 without asking for personal information?
Best, Mark
On 7/31/14, 12:15 AM, Lisa Gruwell wrote:
Hi Pine-
The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year. If we were to limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then we would not be compliance. Instead of trying to create a spike for every scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
Best, Lisa
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
reasonable
discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
like
a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
Pete
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
grant
that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
heirarchy
made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
and
did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
primary
attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
offer
to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
to
think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
complicated.
It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
suggest
is
possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
judgment
calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
right?
Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
the
threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
> As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for
the
> information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
with
U.S.
> laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are
required
to
> send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a
certain
> amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
over
that
> threshold. > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
>> Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
AFAIK.
>> Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules
like
real
>> estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of
food
for > a >> food bank don't require identification info. >> Pine >> On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" <
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> wrote: >>> Hi Pine, >>> >>> The IRS link includes the note that: >>> >>> "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to
information
>>> reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
property."
>>> - no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
the
IRS
>>> treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
currency,
>>> it triggers different - and presumably more complex -
reporting
>>> requirements. >>> >>> Andrew. >>> >>> On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote: >>>> There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted
but
there >> are >>>> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info.
Is
that
> an >>> IRS >>>> requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog
entry.
AFAIK
>> with >>>> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for
small
>>>> contributions. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Pine >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> >>> >>> -- >>> - Andrew Gray >>> andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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In that case how would the Foundation tell if someone made a number of donations of under $1k that were declarable in aggregate? Hi Lisa,
I admit I am not an expert in U.S. tax law, so I could be entirely misinterpreting it. But my read of the IRS instructions are that donors who donate more than $5000 in one year must be reported, *except* that any single donation of less than $1000 may be discounted when calculating this total. This seems to be a provision to reduce compliance costs, so small donations don't have to be tracked when determining when a donor has donated more than $5000 in a year.
Does that mean Wikimedia could accept donations of less than $1000 without asking for personal information?
Best, Mark
On 7/31/14, 12:15 AM, Lisa Gruwell wrote:
Hi Pine-
The threshold is an aggregate limit in a calendar year. If we were to limit the donation amount to under $5000, a person could give several donations that totaled over $5000 in a single year (which happens) and then we would not be compliance. Instead of trying to create a spike for every scenario like this, we find it safest just to ask for the information.
Best, Lisa
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Heh. If this discussion gets too technical we can move it off-list. At the
moment if Fundraising just wants to say "we'll work on this for future improvenents to the Bitcoin donation system" and posting that statement in the blog entry and the donation screen would be ok IMO.
I am rarely satisfied with "it's complicated" as an answer to anything. (:
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:47 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Sure -- I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and
reasonable
discussion to have. It just appeared to me that you were expecting a detailed explanation from the chief revenue officer, which didn't seem
like
a reasonable expectation. Maybe I was wrong though. If others want to use this list to debate the finer points of US tax law and effective privacy practices for donations, I won't be the one standing in the way :)
Pete
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
In the crowdsourced world, I like to think that we evaluate ideas and
programs based on their merits rather than who makes a decision. I
grant
that some heirarchy is good and necessary, and in this case the
heirarchy
made a reasoned decision to include Bitcoin in the donation options,
and
did so in a way that makes a lot of sense except that one of the
primary
attractions of Bitcoin, privacy, seems to have not been a priority. I'm
asking about how this can be addressed. It's possible that WMF can't
offer
to accept anonymous bitcoin donations at all, but as an optimist I like
to
think that it can, and my experience with other nonprofits is that anonymous donations are possible.
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:26 PM, "Pete Forsyth" peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Pine, I think Lisa already answered your question -- it's
complicated.
It's
possible (based on my limited knowledge, anyway) that what you
suggest
is
possible; but she never said it was impossible. She said it was the
safest
approach, given a complicated scenario. This is her professional
expertise,
so we have to assume a basic level of competence to make those
judgment
calls.
Don't we? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Hm, that is different from my understanding of the IRC. You are
required
to
offer a receipt, not to actually send one if the donor declines,
right?
Then you could have a checkbox to disable personal info and the
receipt.
You could also enable anonymous donations under $5000 or whatever
the
threshold is for reporting the donor's info to the IRS, right?
Pine On Jul 30, 2014 2:06 PM, "Lisa Gruwell" lgruwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
As Andrew said, it is complicated. We decided that asking for
> the
information was the safest approach and best enables to comply
> with
U.S.
laws as well as laws in other countries. For example, we are > required
to
send a receipt for tax purposes to U.S. donors who give over a > certain
amount and we have already today received gifts through bitcoin
> over
that
threshold. > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com > wrote:
Nonprofits in the US are only required to report major donors
>> > AFAIK.
Bitcoins aren't assets with more complicated transfer rules
>> > like
real
estate or stock shares. Simple property donations like a can of >> > food
for
> a > >> food bank don't require identification info. >> Pine >> On Jul 30, 2014 1:01 PM, "Andrew Gray" < >> > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
wrote:
> >> Hi Pine, >>> >>> The IRS link includes the note that: >>> >>> "A payment made using virtual currency is subject to >>> >> information
reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in
>>> >> property."
- no expert, but I suspect this is the explanation. Because
>>> >> the
IRS
treat bitcoin as "property" (like, eg, shares) rather than
>>> >> currency,
it triggers different - and presumably more complex - >>> >> reporting
requirements.
>>> >>> Andrew. >>> >>> On 30 July 2014 20:20, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> There is a post on the blog saying that bitcoin is accepted >>>> >>> but
there
> are >> >>> several questions about why WMF is asking for contact info. >>>> >>> Is
that
an > >> IRS >>> >>>> requirement? Might want to post the reason in the blog >>>> >>> entry.
AFAIK
with >> >>> the nonprofits I donate to none require personal info for >>>> >>> small
contributions.
>>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Pine >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> >>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org >> >> ?subject=unsubscribe>
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On 31 July 2014 15:00, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
In that case how would the Foundation tell if someone made a number of donations of under $1k that were declarable in aggregate?
They couldn't, obviously.
I find myself unsurprised that, after finally getting the validation they've been after for years, the *very first* thing the Bitcoin advocates do is ... complain.
- d.
On 31 July 2014 16:17, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 31 July 2014 15:00, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
In that case how would the Foundation tell if someone made a number of donations of under $1k that were declarable in aggregate?
They couldn't, obviously.
I find myself unsurprised that, after finally getting the validation they've been after for years, the *very first* thing the Bitcoin advocates do is ... complain.
- d.
Agreed. I do find it dispiriting that a feature that has been vociferously requested by a group for a while has been greeted with "it's not good enough, you didn't do it right" rather than "Thank you for responding to our request. Here's a request for how we'd like it modified". I personally am not interested in donating by BitCoin but obviously some are - well done to the WMF for taking the effort to address the needs of this particular community.
Perhaps, on the BitCoin donation page where the personal information is being requested the WMF could edit the footer to include a link to a policy page that describes why they are asking for the info. Currently BitCoin donation page footer says this:
Cancel and return to Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Ways_to_Give?customer%5Bemail%5D=&customer%5Bshipping_address%5D%5B%5D=%2C++&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Bdescription%5D=Donations+to+the+Wikimedia+Foundation%2C+the+non-profit+organisation+that+runs+Wikipedia&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Bid%5D=44aa9355518928151be736fbd043236c&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Bname%5D=Wikimedia+Donations&order%5Bbutton%5D%5Btype%5D=donation&order%5Bcreated_at%5D=2014-07-31+08%3A41%3A04+-0700&order%5Bcustom%5D=&order%5Bevent%5D=&order%5Bid%5D=7HW0APZ4&order%5Breceive_address%5D=1Q1DKLgx8rMLadEtnV8yyza9ciiHZ8qxaQ&order%5Bstatus%5D=new&order%5Btotal_btc%5D%5Bcents%5D=1709000&order%5Btotal_btc%5D%5Bcurrency_iso%5D=BTC&order%5Btotal_native%5D%5Bcents%5D=1000&order%5Btotal_native%5D%5Bcurrency_iso%5D=USD&order%5Btotal_payout%5D%5Bcents%5D=1000&order%5Btotal_payout%5D%5Bcurrency_iso%5D=USD&order%5Btransaction%5D=&cancel=true Powered by Coinbase.com https://coinbase.com/ · Report Issue https://coinbase.com/checkouts/44aa9355518928151be736fbd043236c#report_form ·
Could a new link be added there that says "Why are we asking for your details?" (or something like that) and goes to a page that explains reasons that have been given by Lisa etc. here. This doesn't require changing any processes/policies but does at least provide those who are concerned with relevant information at the moment where their concerns arise, before they feel the need to vent their frustration on the blog announcement's comments https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/30/wikimedia-foundation-now-accepts-bitco...
-Liam
This may be technically possible but it may also be time consuming to implement, and and in the interest of using Fundriasing Tech time in optimal ways it may be that preserving donor anonymity from the IRS is a lower priority if the Foundation can meet its fundraising goals without doing this. I think a carefully worded, brief explanation in the blog entry and the Bitcoin donation page would be appreciated.
My personal interest in this subject isn't about bitcoin as a currency, it's about the preservation of privacy for those who want it, especially for Bitcoin if WMF is going to accept it.
I think it's reasonable for people to be surprised that anonynous donations aren't allowed through Bitcoin.
On the good side, the fact that people want to donate anonymously, taking no credit, suggests that WMF has earned some good faith even in dangerous places on the internet. That is impressive.
Pine
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