Wikimedia projects exist in over 100 languages. Many of those languages are spoken in countries which do not have chapters yet.
Would it be a worthwhile experiment, for every wiki that is in a language without a chapter in the country/countries where it is spoken, to put a note in the _registered user_ site notice, such as:
"If you are interested in starting a Wikimedia Foundation chapter in [country/countries], please go to [page on Meta]"?
The process could be similar to the Wikinews language creation process, i.e., there would have to be a minimum number of supporters, who might also have to do some grunt work to prove commitment. Then they would get their own chapter mailing list.
Unregistered readers would not see this notice.
We might define some preconditions for this:
1) Single login to make it easier to switch over to Meta 2) Logo / trademark agreements fully sorted out with existing chapters 3) Best practices document in place 4) Dismissable site notice so users won't be permanently annoyed by it.
But in general, do you think it's an idea worth exploring?
2006/9/26, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org:
Wikimedia projects exist in over 100 languages. Many of those languages are spoken in countries which do not have chapters yet.
Would it be a worthwhile experiment, for every wiki that is in a language without a chapter in the country/countries where it is spoken, to put a note in the _registered user_ site notice, such as:
"If you are interested in starting a Wikimedia Foundation chapter in [country/countries], please go to [page on Meta]"?
The process could be similar to the Wikinews language creation process, i.e., there would have to be a minimum number of supporters, who might also have to do some grunt work to prove commitment. Then they would get their own chapter mailing list.
Unregistered readers would not see this notice.
We might define some preconditions for this:
- Single login to make it easier to switch over to Meta
- Logo / trademark agreements fully sorted out with existing chapters
- Best practices document in place
- Dismissable site notice so users won't be permanently annoyed by it.
But in general, do you think it's an idea worth exploring?
-- Peace & Love, Erik
The problem is that chapters are rather country oriented than language oriented. There is one very multiligual chapter (Swiss) and you may consider UK and Candian chapters as multilingual as well. On the other hand why not to create chapter in New Zeeland or South Africa? So you should put that notice on English Wikipedia as well.
On 9/26/06, Tomasz Ganicz polimerek@gmail.com wrote:
The problem is that chapters are rather country oriented than language oriented. There is one very multiligual chapter (Swiss) and you may consider UK and Candian chapters as multilingual as well. On the other hand why not to create chapter in New Zeeland or South Africa? So you should put that notice on English Wikipedia as well.
I actually wouldn't have a problem with that, if the notice is dismissable and only shown until a "seed group" of people has been found.
On 9/26/06, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Generally it would be worthy to try, since most of editors have no idea about chapters nor Foundation. And it makes a sense in my opinion to invite only registered users (see below).
One technical remark, however:
Unregistered readers would not see this notice.
Not always. If a wiki powered by MediaWiki lacks anonnotice, both unregistered users and registered get the same message put on [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]]. My sketchy touch-n-go during the Election period suggested fourtyeight of fiftith (so presumably 95 or -6% of our all wikis) of our projects provide the same message both to anon and registered.
And, possibly, there is a bug/bugs around "global frash" of that and we need to fix it. I'll later put a report to bugzilla, so here only a brief remark: 3/50 wikis failed to have their sitenotice frashed and contained inappropriate messages (two wikimania scholarships, one -[default blank]). It doesn't work "global messages" in a true sense.
Another considerable thing is those meta-newcomers may need the description what the chapter is and is not. [[m:Wikimedia Japan]] seemed to be a horrible example what unknowledgeable & not involved editors can think out. An anon created this page and later registered him- or herself as "Wikimedian" (in kana). Until today, most sane and involved people of Japanese speaking projects seem to avoid being involved to that discussion.
On 9/26/06, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
Not always. If a wiki powered by MediaWiki lacks anonnotice, both unregistered users and registered get the same message put on [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]]. My sketchy touch-n-go during the Election period suggested fourtyeight of fiftith (so presumably 95 or -6% of our all wikis) of our projects provide the same message both to anon and registered.
That's good to know.
Another considerable thing is those meta-newcomers may need the description what the chapter is and is not. [[m:Wikimedia Japan]] seemed to be a horrible example what unknowledgeable & not involved editors can think out. An anon created this page and later registered him- or herself as "Wikimedian" (in kana). Until today, most sane and involved people of Japanese speaking projects seem to avoid being involved to that discussion.
Absolutely. I think we need to move much further along in the process of defining both the role of the Foundation and its Chapters before trying such an experiment.
A nice idea, when you want to focus on the creation of chapters. But I think creating chapters shound not be a goal on itself. When you put such a notice, you create certain expectations, people will expect you to accept their proposal, their chapter, and will have probably have no idea what kind of work it will bring to them.
I think it is very important that the group of people knows what they start with, and that they are motivated, and really see the advantages and want to do it themselves. not because they saw it, thought it would be nice, and did it in a whelm, and found bound to the idea. Not because they felt that the foundation apeprently felt that every wiki should have at least one chapter, not because *we* think it would work. I think there are enough countries and communities who can work very well without chapter, or who don't feel the need to it. I would rather like to open the discussion in general, have an IRC-meeting with explanations, and invite key people from the communities to think with us.
Greetings, Lodewijk
2006/9/26, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org:
Wikimedia projects exist in over 100 languages. Many of those languages are spoken in countries which do not have chapters yet.
Would it be a worthwhile experiment, for every wiki that is in a language without a chapter in the country/countries where it is spoken, to put a note in the _registered user_ site notice, such as:
"If you are interested in starting a Wikimedia Foundation chapter in [country/countries], please go to [page on Meta]"?
The process could be similar to the Wikinews language creation process, i.e., there would have to be a minimum number of supporters, who might also have to do some grunt work to prove commitment. Then they would get their own chapter mailing list.
Unregistered readers would not see this notice.
We might define some preconditions for this:
- Single login to make it easier to switch over to Meta
- Logo / trademark agreements fully sorted out with existing chapters
- Best practices document in place
- Dismissable site notice so users won't be permanently annoyed by it.
But in general, do you think it's an idea worth exploring?
-- Peace & Love, Erik
Member, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, all views or opinions expressed in this message are solely my own and do not represent an official position of the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 26/09/06, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
Not because they felt that the foundation apeprently felt that every wiki should have at least one chapter,
I thought the reason for chapters was because tax deductibility tends to work in units of national borders - if UK donors could get deductibility for donations to the WMF in the US, I doubt anyone would have bothered with Wikimedia UK. Presumably I am well behind on current thinking.
- d.
2006/9/26, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com:
On 26/09/06, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
Not because they felt that the foundation apeprently felt that every wiki should have at least one chapter,
I thought the reason for chapters was because tax deductibility tends to work in units of national borders - if UK donors could get deductibility for donations to the WMF in the US, I doubt anyone would have bothered with Wikimedia UK. Presumably I am well behind on current thinking.
This is one of the reasons, but there are many others. For example, for us the main reason to create a chapter was to have a bank account which is usefull for organising meetings. You can for example pay for a lecture theatre or book a hotel rooms in advance. The second reason was to have a some sort of quasi-formal representation of Wikipedia community in Poland, with whom journalists and goverment officials may speak.
On 9/26/06, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
I think it is very important that the group of people knows what they start with, and that they are motivated, and really see the advantages and want to do it themselves.
True. What I think is essential in this process is showcasing what chapters _already_ do. This can be a way to generate genuine interest beyond the "It would be cool" effect. For instance, Frank sent a report about the "Wikipedia in schools" training project of the German chapter; Michael described the Swiss Wikipedia Day; the Dutch chapter also recently organized a conference. There was Wikipedia Academy in Göttingen, the 5 year Wikipedia exhibit, and the digitization project initiated by the German chapter. And so on, and so forth.
Do we have a page describing these use cases, one to two paragraphs each, with pictures? If not, is someone willing to volunteer to coordinate this? (CCing Elisabeth Bauer, who has done amazing work on promotion materials.)
I agree with what TOR said regarding additional preconditions for my proposal. I hope to have a telconf with Delphine soon to get a better picture of the chapter situation.
I also agree with you that IRC (or real-life) meetings can be an excellent way to have honest discussions about the future direction of a wiki community. Effe, if you are interested in running/organizing such meetings, can you contact me privately and we'll try to work out the details.
On 9/26/06, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
True. What I think is essential in this process is showcasing what chapters _already_ do.
Yes, this, though, lies in the hands of the chapters. It is a matter of them getting organized and sharing, just like Philipp or Frank did, with the rest of the community, what they do when they do it.
I agree with what TOR said regarding additional preconditions for my proposal. I hope to have a telconf with Delphine soon to get a better picture of the chapter situation.
I also agree with you that IRC (or real-life) meetings can be an excellent way to have honest discussions about the future direction of a wiki community. Effe, if you are interested in running/organizing such meetings, can you contact me privately and we'll try to work out the details.
The channel #wikimedia-chapters is open to anyone who feels like dropping by and members of the chapters committee are there to answer questions.
The experience of the chapters committee proves that there definitely is a lack of communication about what the chapters committee does, and how. Lukasz has addressed those points and given a few potential answers. This should be reinforced and we might want to find a way to make sure that all projects know "about" the chapters committee, but this goes par with a better communication about what the Foundation does, what it is, and how one can get involved.
On your idea of advertising chapters on site notices, I will state that I am not sure it is the way to go at all.
Chapters must answer the need of a geographical community to get together for reasons that make sense, as Tomasz stated, they should never be the "cool thing to do of the day".
I remember Austin spending hours in the channel trying to make understand to one user that creating a chapter was not a one-shot thing, but rather the result of a concertation between people in a country who wished to offer a local face to potential partners, to the press if need be, to political instances etc. This kind of communication should be emphasized, and we should not be giving the wrong impression that chapters are either easy to set up, nor the answer to everyone's questions.
All of us have helped people reflect in one country or another about what it was to be a chapter. Many people have started reflecting and gave up, for reasons that were in no way tied either to the Chapters committee or the Foundation. In the end, I believe that we go back to the same old thing, better advertising of what a chapter is, what they do, how they do it, what their relationship to the Foundation AND the projects is, is the first thing to tackle. Having to deal with 100 chapters-to-be that do not know the first thing about this is in my opinion a waste of everybody's time.
Delphine
Erik Moeller napisał(a):
Wikimedia projects exist in over 100 languages. Many of those languages are spoken in countries which do not have chapters yet.
Would it be a worthwhile experiment, for every wiki that is in a language without a chapter in the country/countries where it is spoken, to put a note in the _registered user_ site notice, such as:
"If you are interested in starting a Wikimedia Foundation chapter in [country/countries], please go to [page on Meta]"?
The idea is nice. But as a chapter president and ChapCom member I'd strongly advise against it for the time being.
Firstly, from what Tomek told me, there were still some misconceptions about what a chapter should be (i.e. paid positions, confusion about chapter-WMFboard interaction, etc.). And please note that all this is around despite the fact we have a plain and simple (IMO) FAQ on meta. We either have to make it even plainer and simpler or more prominent in some way.
Second, sad as it may be, at this time we are not able to handle a larger group of new chapters and give them all the attention they need. And there is nothing worst for a new chapter than being put on hold for a month.
So, the preconditions list should be a bit longer... 5) General trademark agreement ready 6) Clear division of responsibilities within WMF 7) An extremely plain-and-simple "Chapter Creation FAQ", maybe a step-by-step overview in place
Possibly there is an 8, 9 and 10 I haven't thought about.
However, this is certainly a wonderful idea to be implemented in the not so distant future. Possibly even since January.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org