On 02/11/2011 6:36 AM, me(a)marcusbuck.org wrote: Well, you'll hear no such thing from me (and I'm arguably one of the more verbal opponents of the image filter as originally proposed). This neatly sidestep all of the fatal flaws with filters where moral judgments are imposed, or our well-intended technology is misused to readers' detriment. -- Coren / Marc

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Marc A. Pelletier <marc(a)uberbox.org> wrote: Not to contradict you in any substantial way, this idea has been posited in an immense variety of forms, all soundly rejected by the community. For someone to claim paternity to to a particular variety of the filtering scheme, beggars belief. Dudes. you are not the first to think this up, There are loads of them strewn by the roadside, when Jimbo was still on his meds!! (Sorry Jimbo, you know I appreciate all the hard work you did to get wikipedia up...) Telll you what. If somebody collects the whole list on perennial proposals page, and publicly tells us all how many permutations there are of this proposal, I will personally donate -- wait for it -- ten times that number in dimes to their designated charity. And I say this with a straight face, this might well bankrupt me. -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

Dominic McDevitt-Parks, 02/11/2011 16:30: Unless that "as if" is a variation of the "etsi deus non daretur" trick, I disagree: lately, the WMF has actually been quite honest in admitting that sister projects are not essential etc. etc. Nemo

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain(a)gmail.com> wrote: I want to address what appears to be the two main concerns here with the "Wikipedia Zero" Initiative: 1) Using this as a way to expand the reach of an "image filter" and 2) A conspiracy to push Wikipedia at the expense of the sister projects In regards to #1, although I'm somewhat aware of the discussions around the image filter, this is not affecting how we are approaching this Initiative. Not at all. In fact, if operators are willing to allow for a zero-rated (data usage free) version of Wikipedia that includes images and all, that's what we ideally want. And I will continue to push for that when partners are willing to do that. Operators, in general, are worried about taxing their networks by providing free data at all so we're trying to work with them so there is at least some way that people that can't afford data access in developing countries to be able to at least access some form of Wikipedia to start out with. We're also trying ways to do this via SMS & USSD, which also doesn't support images. The reality is that images use up more bandwidth than text so we have to work within the constraints of mobile operators. A user that wants to pay for data access can get access to full Wikipedia and the sister projects. However, as I said, we're pushing to get as much as we can with these zero-rated initiatives and if mobile carriers are willing to do a version that includes images and all, and every project, we should definitely do it. The more complete the experience, the better. In regards to #2, there is no conspiracy here. We've been quite open about this. Yes, there is more of an emphasis on Wikipedia but it goes back to WMF's prioritization of "A rising tide lifts all boats" strategy. The more interest in Wikipedia will then hopefully translate into more interest on Wikimedia in general and benefit the other projects. Therefore, pushing interest in Wikipedia doesn't take away from the sister projects, rather, it should hopefully lead to more interest in them in the future. Furthermore, the zero-rated Wikipedia initiative is focused on developing countries where people have limited or no access to the internet, so many of the projects aren't well known enough or developed enough in those native languages where operators are willing to promote them. If users from developing countries discover more ways to access Wikipedia then we're hoping that it would then be easier for them to discover the sister projects. --Kul (mobile grunt worker)

Dominic McDevitt-Parks wrote: I generally don't like "+1" posts, but wow, well said, Dominic. MZMcBride

Can I start with my disappointment of those who like to hijack/corrupt the conversation for their pet whinge? This was in no way bagging WP, absolutely not. This was not bagging WMF; this was my concern and frustration that WMF conflates to become Wikipedia, and that the organisation does it itself. There was ZERO mention of conspiracy, there was actually no blame whatsoever, and such comments in that regard were either careless or callous, and to me disrespectful and somewhat dismissive of my actual concerns. :-( When the conflation continues on nearly every occasion, what reflection can those who volunteer their time on the smaller projects have to the consideration of their efforts? What actions and reflections of our action do we undertake to modify our behaviours to think and act globally? Thanks to Dominic for actually reading the email, and being significantly more eloquent than I. To the WPians around the world, yes the site is important, it is the flagship and the gateway to many parts of WMF. That said, it is an encyclopaedia, it is not a dictionary, it is not a library, it is not a source of quotes; and the site most distinctly states and discourages such extensions. To me, the usefulness of Wikisource is as a resource to be used to present works of previous centuries that can be used as further resources; as works that are contemporary to their times, and reflect the BLP/recentlyLP/their celebrity of THEIR time; without our bias or disregard of people of their time. You don't see us screaming and shouting for resources, we ask, and we understand that we don't get top billing. However, it would be nice to see some billing, or even to see some flicker of interest. If there are not to be any resources and if we are just poo under the boots of the downtrodden, then do us the courtesy of letting us know that our efforts are not valued. Regards, Andrew On 2 Nov 2011 at 17:19, Dominic McDevitt-Parks wrote:

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:10 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain(a)gmail.com> wrote: To quote from the movie "The Right Stuff" (perhaps misquote, so sue me) "The issue here isn't pussy, it's monkey." The administration and the tech folk are still treating the folks who are going to ride the rocket as not in charge, and that has to change. A fork or whatever, but this simply cannot be allowed to stand. *We* edit wikipedia. Not Sue or Erik or Jimbo, or the Board (least of all).We do it. There is another famous movie quote. "Build it and they will come." Welll there is an obverse side to that coin. "Tear it down, and they won't come anymore." -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]