Russian Wikipedia in blacklist trouble again

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Tomasz W. Kozlowski

8 May 2013 8 May '13

4:52 p.m.

Hi all, I think it should be noted that the Russian Wikipedia is having more and more problems with the state-maintained Internet blacklist (an idea that they heavily opposed, and which made them go on strike last July). Apparently, the infamous "cannabis smoking" article was put back on the said blacklist two days ago (May 6)[1] due to a decision of the Federal Drug Control Service which doesn't like the current wording of the article. The blacklist now includes fifteen (15) articles related to drugs and suicide: thirteen (13) from the Russian, and two (2) from the English Wikipedia[2]. This is the second time that the Russian Wikipedia is having trouble with the blacklist in the past 30 days, something that has unfortunately been missed over the DCRI controversy that occurred in the first days of April. <shameless promotion> For those of you who haven't heard of this yet, I prepared a short summary at <http://twkozlowski.net/roskomnadzor-strikes-back/>; the previous episode of the "Wikipedia vs. Roskomnadzor" story is described at <http://twkozlowski.net/wikipedia-censorship-attempts/>. </shameless promotion> I'm quite sure that it is a mere coincidence that the Russian and French controversies occurred around the same time, but it's nevertheless a bit worrying to have to watch our communities being forced to edit the contents of articles to please the authorities & take them off blacklists. == References == * [1] <http://en.ria.ru/russia/20130507/181016379/Wikipedia-Cannabis-Article-Put-Back-on-Russian-Blacklist.html> * [2] http://tiny.cc/e7urww -- Tomasz

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Everton Zanella Alvarenga

8 May 8 May

7:55 p.m.

These days I just say this report - Less than 14% of World Lives in Countries with Free Press <http://gijn.org/2013/05/07/less-than-14-of-the-world-lives-in-countries-with-a-free-press/> It would be interesting a global comparison on how these States with less freedom deal with Wikipedia. We could have a page with a table of countries where Wikipedia is partially/totally blocked, among other things. I wonder how it will be when we begin to use Internet for real. Tom 2013/5/8 Tomasz W. Kozlowski <tomasz(a)twkozlowski.net>et>:

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-- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) OKFN Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org

JP Béland

8:07 p.m.

Any details translated in English about what are the specific "wording" on the articles that pushed the Russian State to blacklist those articles? Thanks, JP aka Amqui 2013/5/8, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <tomasz(a)twkozlowski.net>et>:

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Tomasz W. Kozlowski

8:58 p.m.

Amqui wrote:

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Any details translated in English about what are the specific "wording" on the articles that pushed the Russian State to blacklist those articles?

The community-maintained list of all blacklisted articles <http://tiny.cc/e7urww> has all the necessary information; apparently the articles are blacklisted because they contain information on the use of the drugs, methods of their development and production, and in the case of articles on suicide — information about methods of suicide. That list is very informative; it has links to all decisions in PDF format, dates, and numbers. Of course Google Translate doesn't provide an exact translation, but it does all right. -- Tomasz

geni

8:19 p.m.

On 8 May 2013 16:52, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <tomasz(a)twkozlowski.net> wrote:

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They folded the first time. Were they foolish enough to think that there would not be a second? -- geni

Anthony Cole

8:46 p.m.

Russian is an/the official language in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Moldova, and Romania, and spoken in yet other parts of the world. If Russian was only spoken within the borders of Russia, then tailoring the articles to that country's censorship laws would be pragmatic - at least they'd get something about marijuana smoking. But I think the significant number of Russian-speakers outside Russia kind of obliges us to just write good NPOV articles and let the Russian authorities do what they want. On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:19 AM, geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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On 8 May 2013 16:52, Tomasz W. Kozlowski <tomasz(a)twkozlowski.net> wrote:

They folded the first time. Were they foolish enough to think that there would not be a second? -- geni _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Strainu

9:18 p.m.

2013/5/8 Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com>om>:

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Russian is an/the official language in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Moldova, and Romania, and spoken in yet other parts of the world.

You might want to update your info. The only official language in Romania and Moldova is Romanian. Strainu

Russavia

9:26 p.m.

Correction: in Moldova, the official language is "Moldovan" ;) this is a pandora's box one really doesn't want to open xD However, Russian is an official language in Pridnestrovie, and also every-day language in Gagauzia. Back to scheduled programming...... On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Strainu <strainu10(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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2013/5/8 Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com>om>:

Russian is an/the official language in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Moldova, and Romania, and spoken in yet other parts of the world.

You might want to update your info. The only official language in Romania and Moldova is Romanian. Strainu _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Strainu

9:35 p.m.

2013/5/8 Russavia <russavia.wikipedia(a)gmail.com>om>:

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Correction: in Moldova, the official language is "Moldovan" ;) this is a pandora's box one really doesn't want to open xD

Right, one might always read the English Wikipedia article and find out we were both right (funny, huh? :) ) Totally agree that we don't want to reopen this, though. Let's just say that Russian is NOT an official language in Moldova.

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However, Russian is an official language in Pridnestrovie, and also every-day language in Gagauzia.

Please use English names where available, I had to google to find out what "Pridnestrovie" is. I've never ever heard that name before. Like Anthony said, there are many other places where Russian is currently spoken, throughout Eastern Europe. Strainu

Russavia

9:42 p.m.

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Nice to work with you on this mailing list to reach a mutually advantageous and NPOV position on this issue. :) Russavia

Anthony Cole

9 May 9 May

3:10 a.m.

I was relying on the infobox in English Wikipedia's article, "Russian language." Is it safe to say Russian is spoken in many regions outside Russia? On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Russavia <russavia.wikipedia(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

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Nice to work with you on this mailing list to reach a mutually advantageous and NPOV position on this issue. :) Russavia _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Strainu

8:18 a.m.

Yes, it is :) I'm not sure the actual point you were trying to make stands, though. Even if Russian would only be spoken in Russia, it still wouldn't be a reason to give in to censorship pressure. But of course, I'm talking from a country who doesn't have these problems so openly... Strainu 2013/5/9 Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com>om>:

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Anthony Cole

12:19 p.m.

In your hypothetical case of Russian only being spoken in one country that censors "how to smoke marijuana" information: If you insist on leaving a paragraph on "how to make a bong" in the Russian-language "Marijuana smoking" article, then the article won't be accessible to 140,000,000 people; if you remove that paragraph (and any others that are censored), the article, and its information about psychosis, respiratory effects, geographic distribution, history, correlation with tobacco smoking, gateway to harder drugs hypothesis, etc. will be available to 140,000,000 people. We would be failing in our mission to disseminate educational information effectively and globally if, due to an ideological attachment to NOTCENSORED, we took the former option. If, however, there is a significant population outside Russia whose first language is Russian, and who don't read one of the other main Wikipedia languages, it's a more difficult decision. Do we deny them the bong-making instructions so as to provide the remainder of the article to the Russian readers? I know what I'd do in that example. But my attachment to NOTCENSORED doesn't trump my attachment to our mission. On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Strainu <strainu10(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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geni

12:47 p.m.

On 9 May 2013 12:19, Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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The problem is that in the real world it doesn't stop there. States that have found it easy to censor you once will continue doing so. Today its about drugs tomorrow its Kirill I of Moscow's watch day after that its anything critical of Putin. Since this is Russia I expect coverage of the issue of homosexuality could get interesting. -- geni

Fred Bauder

1:12 p.m.

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On 9 May 2013 12:19, Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

The Russian government censors historically and can be expected to do so in the future. A dryer iteration of the marijuana article, omitting how to grow and smoke as well as how "wonderful" dope is, will probably pass. Remember, "assume good faith"? It is easy enough to work around, "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is not censored. I don't think the "slippery slope" is all that slippery. Fred

Marc A. Pelletier

12:53 p.m.

On 05/09/2013 07:19 AM, Anthony Cole wrote:

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We would be failing in our mission to disseminate educational information effectively and globally if, due to an ideological attachment to NOTCENSORED, we took the former option.

You're saying this as though those things were orthogonal to each other. They are not. When we bow to random entities' wishes of what is "correct" educational information, you've already fatally compromised that mission. Should we remove the articles about Tibet from zhwp so that the PRC is more accepting of Wikipedia? -- Coren / Marc

Fred Bauder

1:14 p.m.

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On 05/09/2013 07:19 AM, Anthony Cole wrote:

We would be failing in our mission to disseminate educational information effectively and globally if, due to an ideological attachment to NOTCENSORED, we took the former option.

Tarc Meridian

8:34 p.m.

What a terribly ill-informed comment. This is something one sees regularly in new editors, ones who misunderstand NPOV thinking that it is a simple formula of good stuff + critical stuff == balanced article. Adding Chinese anti-Tibetan propaganda in order to appease them is not a sensible idea.

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Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 06:14:16 -0600 From: fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Russian Wikipedia in blacklist trouble again

On 05/09/2013 07:19 AM, Anthony Cole wrote:

We would be failing in our mission to disseminate educational information effectively and globally if, due to an ideological attachment to NOTCENSORED, we took the former option.

No, but including accurate information about the conditions of life of the serfs and slaves of old Tibet, and the ridiculous superstitions of the lamas will go a long way toward lifting blocking of those pages. Fred _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

David Gerard

8:42 p.m.

On 9 May 2013 20:34, Tarc Meridian <tarc(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

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What a terribly ill-informed comment. This is something one sees regularly in new editors,

Fred's been on Wikipedia since it was wikipedia.com, so you may wish to reread his comment in that light. - d.

Tarc .

8:48 p.m.

Highlighting the fact that such an old hand was making a rookie-like "mistake" was actually, y'know, the point.

...

What a terribly ill-informed comment. This is something one sees regularly in new editors,

Fred's been on Wikipedia since it was wikipedia.com, so you may wish to reread his comment in that light. - d. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Fred Bauder

9:55 p.m.

I've also done a great deal of editing of Tibetan articles. I wish there was a way to transport you back in time to old Tibet. Fred

...

Highlighting the fact that such an old hand was making a rookie-like "mistake" was actually, y'know, the point.

What a terribly ill-informed comment. This is something one sees

regularly in new editors, Fred's been on Wikipedia since it was wikipedia.com, so you may wish to reread his comment in that light. - d. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Anthony Cole

10 May 10 May

2:05 a.m.

Hey Tarc! On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:55 AM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net> wrote:

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I've also done a great deal of editing of Tibetan articles. I wish there was a way to transport you back in time to old Tibet. Fred

Highlighting the fact that such an old hand was making a rookie-like "mistake" was actually, y'know, the point.

What a terribly ill-informed comment. This is something one sees

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Anthony Cole

3:06 a.m.

Coren / Marc wrote:

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Should we remove the articles about Tibet from zhwp so that the PRC is more accepting of Wikipedia?

No. I don't think we should modify our content to conform to the will of authoritarian censors, as a rule. I guess I'm saying it's not appropriate to be rule-bound. Generally, because of large language diasporas, we have no choice but to print and be damned, but there will be cases where dropping a bit of "how to" information will allow an article to skirt the censor, and in such a case, I'd drop it. On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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Hey Tarc! On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 4:55 AM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net>wrote;wrote:

I've also done a great deal of editing of Tibetan articles. I wish there was a way to transport you back in time to old Tibet. Fred

Highlighting the fact that such an old hand was making a rookie-like "mistake" was actually, y'know, the point.

From: dgerard(a)gmail.com Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 20:42:06 +0100 To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Russian Wikipedia in blacklist trouble again On 9 May 2013 20:34, Tarc Meridian <tarc(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > What a terribly ill-informed comment. This is something one sees regularly in new editors, Fred's been on Wikipedia since it was wikipedia.com, so you may wish to reread his comment in that light. - d. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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participants (12)

Anthony Cole
David Gerard
Everton Zanella Alvarenga
Fred Bauder
geni
JP Béland
Marc A. Pelletier
Russavia
Strainu
Tarc .
Tarc Meridian
Tomasz W. Kozlowski