If this law includes websites hosted outside of South Korea, and there's enough people coming from there, we either have to do it, or risk being blocked.
Techman224
We have some servers in Seoul, Korea, which are donated by Yahoo, right? (I'm not sure, let me know) Then it's a web site in South Korea.
--Cheol
2009/4/10 Techman224 techman224@yahoo.ca:
If this law includes websites hosted outside of South Korea, and there's enough people coming from there, we either have to do it, or risk being blocked.
Techman224
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RYU Cheol wrote:
We have some servers in Seoul, Korea, which are donated by Yahoo, right? (I'm not sure, let me know) Then it's a web site in South Korea.
Those servers are no longer being used to serve the website, they're just being used for a few miscellaneous tasks. We're planning to move all remaining operations in Korea to Florida, and to return the servers to Yahoo. These plans can be hurried up if it's necessary for legal reasons.
Is there an English translation of the law in question, available on the web?
-- Tim Starling
Tim Starling wrote:
RYU Cheol wrote:
We have some servers in Seoul, Korea, which are donated by Yahoo, right? (I'm not sure, let me know) Then it's a web site in South Korea.
Those servers are no longer being used to serve the website, they're just being used for a few miscellaneous tasks. We're planning to move all remaining operations in Korea to Florida, and to return the servers to Yahoo. These plans can be hurried up if it's necessary for legal reasons.
Is there an English translation of the law in question, available on the web?
Answering my own question:
http://www.worldlii.org/int/other/PrivLRes/2005/2.html
Article 55 appears to be relevant:
(1) The Minister of Information and Communication may request the information and communications service providers, etc. (in this Article, including any person falling under a case where the provisions of Article 58 apply mutatis mutandis) to submit related goods and documents, etc., if it is necessary to enforce this Act.
From Article 2:
3. "Information and communications service providers" shall mean the operators of telecommunications as prescribed in Article 2 (1) 1 of the Telecommunications Business Act and other persons who provide information or intermediate information services for profit utilizing the services rendered by the telecommunications service providers;
From the Telecommunications Business Act:
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/treg/Legislation/Korea/BusinessAct.htm
1.the term "telecommunications business operator" means a person who provides telecommunications service with holding the relevant license or making a registration or report under this Act"
Article 58:
(1) The provisions of Articles 22 through 32 shall apply mutatis mutandis where any person prescribed by the Presidential Decree, from among other persons than the information and communications service provider, who provides goods or services, collects, utilizes or provides the personal information of customers of his/her goods or services. In this case, the "information and communications service provider" and the "information and communications service providers, etc." shall be deemed the "providers of goods or services," and the "user" shall be deemed the "customer of goods or services," respectively.
So I guess the question is then, whether Wikimedia is prescribed by the Presidential Decree. Google would qualify under the definition in article 2, since they are for-profit. We would need to come under article 58 if we were to be subject to this legislation.
In any case, there are the usual difficulties of international jurisdiction, as amply demonstrated by the court cases against us in Germany. Unlike Google, Wikimedia would have the option of ignoring any decision by the Korean courts. But the government could easily retaliate by DNS poisoning if it came to that.
-- Tim Starling
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
Tim Starling wrote:
RYU Cheol wrote:
We have some servers in Seoul, Korea, which are donated by Yahoo, right? (I'm not sure, let me know) Then it's a web site in South Korea.
Those servers are no longer being used to serve the website, they're just being used for a few miscellaneous tasks. We're planning to move all remaining operations in Korea to Florida, and to return the servers to Yahoo. These plans can be hurried up if it's necessary for legal reasons.
Is there an English translation of the law in question, available on the web?
Answering my own question:
http://www.worldlii.org/int/other/PrivLRes/2005/2.html
Article 55 appears to be relevant:
(1) The Minister of Information and Communication may request the information and communications service providers, etc. (in this Article, including any person falling under a case where the provisions of Article 58 apply mutatis mutandis) to submit related goods and documents, etc., if it is necessary to enforce this Act.
From Article 2:
- "Information and communications service providers" shall mean the
operators of telecommunications as prescribed in Article 2 (1) 1 of the Telecommunications Business Act and other persons who provide information or intermediate information services for profit utilizing the services rendered by the telecommunications service providers;
From the Telecommunications Business Act: http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/treg/Legislation/Korea/BusinessAct.htm
1.the term "telecommunications business operator" means a person who provides telecommunications service with holding the relevant license or making a registration or report under this Act"
Article 58:
(1) The provisions of Articles 22 through 32 shall apply mutatis mutandis where any person prescribed by the Presidential Decree, from among other persons than the information and communications service provider, who provides goods or services, collects, utilizes or provides the personal information of customers of his/her goods or services. In this case, the "information and communications service provider" and the "information and communications service providers, etc." shall be deemed the "providers of goods or services," and the "user" shall be deemed the "customer of goods or services," respectively.
So I guess the question is then, whether Wikimedia is prescribed by the Presidential Decree. Google would qualify under the definition in article 2, since they are for-profit. We would need to come under article 58 if we were to be subject to this legislation.
In any case, there are the usual difficulties of international jurisdiction, as amply demonstrated by the court cases against us in Germany. Unlike Google, Wikimedia would have the option of ignoring any decision by the Korean courts. But the government could easily retaliate by DNS poisoning if it came to that.
-- Tim Starling
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
The law translated there is outdated as it had been amended nine times from then. The article under question is now Article 44-5, and it goes like follows: (I'm not good at translating legal documents)
(1) In order to install and operate bullet-in board, Any person provided for in the following Subparagraphs shall manage to provide methods and processes to identify the users of that bullet-in board. (called "personal identification management") 1. The national government, local governments, public services, [similar kind of entities] as provided in [law titles]. 2. Information and communications service providers, whose information and communications service it provides has the daily users over 100 thousands, and is under the provisions as prescribed by the Presidential Decree.
"Bullet-in board" is defined as "computer program or technical device with which users can publish code, text, voice, sound, or video on the public using the web, regardless of the name," and "information and communications service" and its "provider" are defined exactly same as the older law.
And the Article 30 of the corresponding Presidential Decree states the criteria as follows:
1. Those who are "under the provisions as prescribed by the Presidential Decree" stated in the Article 44-5 (1) 2 shall mean the information and communications service provider whose average users had been above 100 thousands, during the last three month of the preceding year. 2. Korea Communications Commission shall publicly announce the subject to the Article 44-5 Paragraph 1, and the due for the preparatory and executive process for the personal identification management as prescribed in the Article, by posting on the internet website.
This year, 153 domains are obligated to provide "personal identification management," all of them are websites for either commercial company or public broadcasting service.
For those who can read Korean, it's called 정보통신망 이용촉진 및 정보보호 등에 관한 법률 시행령 and can be found in http://www.klaw.go.kr/
The announcement from Korea Communications Commission this year can be found in http://www.kcc.go.kr/user.do?mode=view&page=P05020000&dc=K05020000&a...
2009/4/10 Puzzlet Chung puzzlet@gmail.com
This year, 153 domains are obligated to provide "personal identification management," all of them are websites for either commercial company or public broadcasting service.
Do you mean that there is a list of entities that come under the law? Can you link to the list, and is it official?
Nathan
Here we have, http://ko.wikipedia.org/User:Ryuch/realname I qouted the names in the announcement of Communication Commission.
It includes Yahoo and Microsoft as well as Google. Yahoo and Microsoft submitted to the law.
--Cheol
2009/4/11 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
2009/4/10 Puzzlet Chung puzzlet@gmail.com
This year, 153 domains are obligated to provide "personal identification management," all of them are websites for either commercial company or public broadcasting service.
Do you mean that there is a list of entities that come under the law? Can you link to the list, and is it official?
Nathan _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
2009/4/10 RYU Cheol rcheol@gmail.com:
Here we have, http://ko.wikipedia.org/User:Ryuch/realname I qouted the names in the announcement of Communication Commission. It includes Yahoo and Microsoft as well as Google. Yahoo and Microsoft submitted to the law.
And YouTube said "what? ahahaha no." http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2009/04/123_42862.html
- d.
Don't hurry up. They announce the services which have to submit the law every year. They already presented the list of this year. They will collect data for the average number of visitors per 3 months in the end of every year. If we have to abide by, they will mention us on their list which will be posted on their web site. The more influence Wikipedia makes, the more possibility for us to be on the list would increase.
--Cheol
2009/4/10 Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org:
RYU Cheol wrote:
We have some servers in Seoul, Korea, which are donated by Yahoo, right? (I'm not sure, let me know) Then it's a web site in South Korea.
Those servers are no longer being used to serve the website, they're just being used for a few miscellaneous tasks. We're planning to move all remaining operations in Korea to Florida, and to return the servers to Yahoo. These plans can be hurried up if it's necessary for legal reasons.
Is there an English translation of the law in question, available on the web?
-- Tim Starling
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
So we need to speed the process up.
________________________________ From: RYU Cheol rcheol@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 8:24:03 AM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] South Korean Government's regulations on real name for Internet
Don't hurry up. They announce the services which have to submit the law every year. They already presented the list of this year. They will collect data for the average number of visitors per 3 months in the end of every year. If we have to abide by, they will mention us on their list which will be posted on their web site. The more influence Wikipedia makes, the more possibility for us to be on the list would increase.
--Cheol
2009/4/10 Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org:
RYU Cheol wrote:
We have some servers in Seoul, Korea, which are donated by Yahoo, right? (I'm not sure, let me know) Then it's a web site in South Korea.
Those servers are no longer being used to serve the website, they're just being used for a few miscellaneous tasks. We're planning to move all remaining operations in Korea to Florida, and to return the servers to Yahoo. These plans can be hurried up if it's necessary for legal reasons.
Is there an English translation of the law in question, available on the web?
-- Tim Starling
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 11:24 PM, RYU Cheol rcheol@gmail.com wrote:
They already presented the list of this year. They will collect data for the average number of visitors per 3 months in the end of every>year.
Which means that we still have more than half a year to clear our doubt and, if the law affects us, to make a decision?
RYU Cheol wrote:
If we have to abide by, they will mention us on their list which will be posted on their web site.
So in theory, this could happen to the English language Wikipedia (if enough many Koreans use it), not only the Korean language Wikipedia? Of course the English language Wikipedia has many anonymous and pseudonymous users. So how would the Korean authorities know which ones are Koreans and need to identify?
For that matter, how would they know which people at ko.wp are Korean citizens?
Mark
2009/4/11 Lars Aronsson lars@aronsson.se:
RYU Cheol wrote:
If we have to abide by, they will mention us on their list which will be posted on their web site.
So in theory, this could happen to the English language Wikipedia (if enough many Koreans use it), not only the Korean language Wikipedia? Of course the English language Wikipedia has many anonymous and pseudonymous users. So how would the Korean authorities know which ones are Koreans and need to identify?
-- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
While I may not be a lawyer, I believe that this system is a paper tiger. It is simply impossible for them to enforce it for many reasons.
1. It is impossible for us to determine which users are from South Korea 2. It would be a privacy violation to deliver names and numbers of non Koreans to the Korean government to be vetted for criminal purposes 3. There exists no means by which they can enforce this law upon the Foundation.
That being said, I urge the Foundation to check system architecture and work towards placing all personal information databases in a country with real protections, like the United States. This will prevent any future problems of this nature.
________________________________ From: Lars Aronsson lars@aronsson.se To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:45:37 AM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] South Korean Government's regulations on real name for Internet
RYU Cheol wrote:
If we have to abide by, they will mention us on their list which will be posted on their web site.
So in theory, this could happen to the English language Wikipedia (if enough many Koreans use it), not only the Korean language Wikipedia? Of course the English language Wikipedia has many anonymous and pseudonymous users. So how would the Korean authorities know which ones are Koreans and need to identify?
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org