Hi there, I have seen a big problem in getting people to contribute in kosovo to wikipedia except the Kosovo article, there they dont call in *Kosovo and Metohija*i, so I think there is a president for the english and albanian names in wikipedia. most of the names are in serbian, with strange characters that I cannot even type. this offends most contributors and prevents locals from contributing. also the serbs erase all albanian names from the referring links so I cannot even find what I am looking for. I would like to start to rename the articles to the albanian english spellings with normal typiable characters. Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit. Right now there is a minority serb group that is making life unpleasant for the local contributors. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjeravica
can someone guide me on this. thanks, mike
On 11/11/2010 03:26 PM, Mike Dupont wrote:
so I think there is a president for the english and albanian names in wikipedia. most of the names are in serbian, with strange characters that I cannot even type. this offends most contributors and prevents locals from contributing. also the serbs erase all albanian names from the referring links so I cannot even find what I am looking for. I would like to start to rename the articles to the albanian english spellings with normal typiable characters. Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit. Right now there is a minority serb group that is making life unpleasant for the local contributors.
You don't think that this would offend Serbian contributors?
Hi there, I have seen a big problem in getting people to contribute in kosovo to wikipedia except the Kosovo article, there they dont call in *Kosovo and Metohija*i, so I think there is a president for the english and albanian names in wikipedia. most of the names are in serbian, with strange characters that I cannot even type. this offends most contributors and prevents locals from contributing. also the serbs erase all albanian names from the referring links so I cannot even find what I am looking for. I would like to start to rename the articles to the albanian english spellings with normal typiable characters. Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit. Right now there is a minority serb group that is making life unpleasant for the local contributors. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjeravica
can someone guide me on this. thanks, mike
-- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org
My advice is to take it easy. We have had this dispute in other areas of the world, notably in the case of place names in Poland, most of which was under German control at some point and has a German name for nearly every possible location. Gdansk, Danzig, was a particular problem. I don't remember exactly how that was resolved, but I do remember all the fireworks.
Start by creating redirects from all Albanian names to the existing articles if they are in Serbian, and vice-versa. Here's a tip, even if you can't type something, you can always copy and paste it, for example: Đeravica (Albanian: Gjeravica; Serbian Cyrillic: Ђеравица). I don't know that a redirect from Ђеравица would be necessary. That way every one can find their way around.
I see an unsigned note on the talk page of Đeravica:
Main reason to change, authors
Listen, let me present you with the biggest reason to change the name, the local people are offended with the serbian names. They live there, and they feel that wikipedia is biased to serbia. This is a major reason not to contribute to wikipedia. It has been a big problem all the time. The few vocal serbs who are pushing to keep the old name dont even live there and cannot contribute much. the people who do live there and can write are being excluded.
12:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a familiar story to me, a lot of new people have moved to where I live and find even the name of a prominent mountain "offensive", see http://www.14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27964 I, of course, find them offensive. That said, Wikipedia, while a bit safer than armed combat, is not a battleground and there is little patience for edit warring. As far as prejudice, I'm pretty sure some Serbians feel Wikipedia is biased against them, and there may be a little truth in that. They have a poor public image.
Wikipedia administrators will not put up with sustained ethnically-based edit warring. However, any one place will have one name under our conventions. How to decide? My intuitive idea is to tolerate Serbian names for places that figure prominently in Serbian history, for example the names of Serbian monasteries, palaces, forts, or battlefields, but use Albanian for place names that now are predominately Albanian. There is no Kosovo section at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) but that is where to set some guidelines after discussion with involved editors.
In the case of Poland the discussion was extensive and guidelines are at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Poland-related articles) That is the sort of resolution to work towards.
So, talk, as you are, on talk pages; be patient; realize the other side also feels put upon and ask for help when you hit rough spots. Imposing a rule from above would be paternalistic and oppressive and it would be good if it could be avoided.
Fred Bauder
I think that at least a consistent listing of both names is needed, expecially on the links. I have had to fight with simple unwillingness to list both names in serbian and albanian on all things.
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
Hi there, I have seen a big problem in getting people to contribute in kosovo to wikipedia except the Kosovo article, there they dont call in *Kosovo and Metohija*i, so I think there is a president for the english and albanian names in wikipedia. most of the names are in serbian, with strange characters that I cannot even type. this offends most contributors and prevents locals from contributing. also the serbs erase all albanian names from the referring links so I cannot even find what I am looking for. I would like to start to rename the articles to the albanian english spellings with normal typiable characters. Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit. Right now there is a minority serb group that is making life unpleasant for the local contributors. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjeravica
can someone guide me on this. thanks, mike
-- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org
My advice is to take it easy. We have had this dispute in other areas of the world, notably in the case of place names in Poland, most of which was under German control at some point and has a German name for nearly every possible location. Gdansk, Danzig, was a particular problem. I don't remember exactly how that was resolved, but I do remember all the fireworks.
Start by creating redirects from all Albanian names to the existing articles if they are in Serbian, and vice-versa. Here's a tip, even if you can't type something, you can always copy and paste it, for example: Đeravica (Albanian: Gjeravica; Serbian Cyrillic: Ђеравица). I don't know that a redirect from Ђеравица would be necessary. That way every one can find their way around.
I see an unsigned note on the talk page of Đeravica:
Main reason to change, authors
Listen, let me present you with the biggest reason to change the name, the local people are offended with the serbian names. They live there, and they feel that wikipedia is biased to serbia. This is a major reason not to contribute to wikipedia. It has been a big problem all the time. The few vocal serbs who are pushing to keep the old name dont even live there and cannot contribute much. the people who do live there and can write are being excluded.
12:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a familiar story to me, a lot of new people have moved to where I live and find even the name of a prominent mountain "offensive", see http://www.14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27964 I, of course, find them offensive. That said, Wikipedia, while a bit safer than armed combat, is not a battleground and there is little patience for edit warring. As far as prejudice, I'm pretty sure some Serbians feel Wikipedia is biased against them, and there may be a little truth in that. They have a poor public image.
Wikipedia administrators will not put up with sustained ethnically-based edit warring. However, any one place will have one name under our conventions. How to decide? My intuitive idea is to tolerate Serbian names for places that figure prominently in Serbian history, for example the names of Serbian monasteries, palaces, forts, or battlefields, but use Albanian for place names that now are predominately Albanian. There is no Kosovo section at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) but that is where to set some guidelines after discussion with involved editors.
In the case of Poland the discussion was extensive and guidelines are at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Poland-related articles) That is the sort of resolution to work towards.
So, talk, as you are, on talk pages; be patient; realize the other side also feels put upon and ask for help when you hit rough spots. Imposing a rule from above would be paternalistic and oppressive and it would be good if it could be avoided.
Fred Bauder
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I think that at least a consistent listing of both names is needed, expecially on the links. I have had to fight with simple unwillingness to list both names in serbian and albanian on all things.
Yes, even when the article name is the English usage, all three names should be included in the introductory paragraph. I'm not clear what you mean by "links" when you refer to listing of both names on the links. I don't think you're referring to redirect.
Simple unwillingness to list both names is a violation of our policies and will have be dealt with by administrators, and if necessary, in an arbitration case. However, before you bring out the big guns, politely warn any users who are doing this in terms of being courteous to both ethnic groups and following guidelines.
Fred Bauder
On 11 November 2010 14:26, Mike Dupont jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com wrote:
Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit.
No ideally we would use the English names. As we have established with say "Germany" and "Norway" what the locals happen to call something is of secondary significance.
Yes, sure, but a lot of smaller villages and towns in many countries do not have well-established English names. Besides, what constitutes the "English name" is a matter of debate - according to law, the official name of Kolkata in English is "Kolkata"... but then, couldn't Germany pass a law saying that their name in English was "Bundesrepublik Deustchland", and would we have to consider that just as English as "Kolkata" or "Thiruvananthapuram" (formerly Calcutta and Trivandrum)?
Anyhow, referring to things by their conventional English name is the reason we call it Kosovo and not Kosovë or Kosova, the Albanian names; however in cases such as village and town names, names of mountains and bridges, etc. which may have been referred to both ways in English literature or barely mentioned or not mentioned at all in English sources, it's less clear-cut.
2010/11/11 geni geniice@gmail.com:
On 11 November 2010 14:26, Mike Dupont jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com wrote:
Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit.
No ideally we would use the English names. As we have established with say "Germany" and "Norway" what the locals happen to call something is of secondary significance.
-- geni
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I have done a write up of the current issues with the naming and invite you to please read and comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Naming_and_status_of_Kosovo_p...
I suggest some things and would like to find agreement, we need to figure out the right way forward on this issue so we can improve the quality of the articles.
Even if we don't change the names of the articles, we have to make sure that the articles are usable for people if they only know the albanian or serbian name. We need to also clean up the entire Parallel article structure for the Districts of Kosovo, Districts of Kosovo (serbia) and Municipalities of Kosovo. The district scheme is totally outdated and confusing. It reduces the quality of the Wikipedia to have POV Forks. thanks mike
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 9:08 AM, M. Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, sure, but a lot of smaller villages and towns in many countries do not have well-established English names. Besides, what constitutes the "English name" is a matter of debate - according to law, the official name of Kolkata in English is "Kolkata"... but then, couldn't Germany pass a law saying that their name in English was "Bundesrepublik Deustchland", and would we have to consider that just as English as "Kolkata" or "Thiruvananthapuram" (formerly Calcutta and Trivandrum)?
Anyhow, referring to things by their conventional English name is the reason we call it Kosovo and not Kosovë or Kosova, the Albanian names; however in cases such as village and town names, names of mountains and bridges, etc. which may have been referred to both ways in English literature or barely mentioned or not mentioned at all in English sources, it's less clear-cut.
2010/11/11 geni geniice@gmail.com:
On 11 November 2010 14:26, Mike Dupont jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com wrote:
Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit.
No ideally we would use the English names. As we have established with say "Germany" and "Norway" what the locals happen to call something is of secondary significance.
-- geni
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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I'm very naive on this subject, but from what I understood there are two ethnic groups (independent or not, it doesn't change this cultural fact). And one of this group has two official languages.
So, regardless of the political agendas, why don't we let each ethnical group have its own wikipedia project, and in case of several languages, allow a secondary fork? This would concretely gives three distinct projects: - - WP:Serbia - - Wp:Kosovo_serbian - - WP:Kosovo_albanian
This way, everybody is entitled to edit in the WP they are agreeing without disrupting the other choices.
On 15/11/2010 10:56, Mike Dupont wrote:
I have done a write up of the current issues with the naming and invite you to please read and comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Naming_and_status_of_Kosovo_p...
I suggest some things and would like to find agreement, we need to figure out the right way forward on this issue so we can improve the quality of the articles.
Even if we don't change the names of the articles, we have to make sure that the articles are usable for people if they only know the albanian or serbian name. We need to also clean up the entire Parallel article structure for the Districts of Kosovo, Districts of Kosovo (serbia) and Municipalities of Kosovo. The district scheme is totally outdated and confusing. It reduces the quality of the Wikipedia to have POV Forks. thanks mike
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 9:08 AM, M. Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, sure, but a lot of smaller villages and towns in many countries do not have well-established English names. Besides, what constitutes the "English name" is a matter of debate - according to law, the official name of Kolkata in English is "Kolkata"... but then, couldn't Germany pass a law saying that their name in English was "Bundesrepublik Deustchland", and would we have to consider that just as English as "Kolkata" or "Thiruvananthapuram" (formerly Calcutta and Trivandrum)?
Anyhow, referring to things by their conventional English name is the reason we call it Kosovo and not Kosovë or Kosova, the Albanian names; however in cases such as village and town names, names of mountains and bridges, etc. which may have been referred to both ways in English literature or barely mentioned or not mentioned at all in English sources, it's less clear-cut.
2010/11/11 geni geniice@gmail.com:
On 11 November 2010 14:26, Mike Dupont jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com wrote:
Ideally we would use the albanian names and encourage the locals to edit.
No ideally we would use the English names. As we have established with say "Germany" and "Norway" what the locals happen to call something is of secondary significance.
-- geni
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Noein pronoein@gmail.com wrote:
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I'm very naive on this subject, but from what I understood there are two ethnic groups (independent or not, it doesn't change this cultural fact). And one of this group has two official languages.
So, regardless of the political agendas, why don't we let each ethnical group have its own wikipedia project, and in case of several languages, allow a secondary fork? This would concretely gives three distinct projects:
- WP:Serbia
- Wp:Kosovo_serbian
- WP:Kosovo_albanian
This way, everybody is entitled to edit in the WP they are agreeing without disrupting the other choices.
...the question is about the naming of pages in the English Wikipedia. The discussion itself belongs on-wiki, or at least on the WikiEn-L list.
~Nathan
On 15 November 2010 15:31, Noein pronoein@gmail.com wrote:
So, regardless of the political agendas, why don't we let each ethnical group have its own wikipedia project, and in case of several languages, allow a secondary fork? This would concretely gives three distinct projects:
- WP:Serbia
- Wp:Kosovo_serbian
- WP:Kosovo_albanian
This way, everybody is entitled to edit in the WP they are agreeing without disrupting the other choices.
1. Official POV forks completely violate NPOV. (Even if unofficial ones are hard to avoid in practice.) POV forks offer convenience to editors and disservice to readers. 2. This is about en:wp only.
- d.
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:19 PM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
- This is about en:wp only.
I am taking it to the english list. thanks for your attention.
A final point for the entire project, not just any language, I would like point out that the sr.wikipedia and sq.wikipedia for kosovo articles are basically uncontrolled POV forks each telling a different story. Have you ever compared the translations of them to English against each other?
mike
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:19 PM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
- This is about en:wp only.
I am taking it to the english list. thanks for your attention.
A final point for the entire project, not just any language, I would like point out that the sr.wikipedia and sq.wikipedia for kosovo articles are basically uncontrolled POV forks each telling a different story. Have you ever compared the translations of them to English against each other?
mike
Hardly a surprise given recent history. View it as a challenge for each community to achieve objectivity. I don't think the Foundation should step in for a decade or two.
Fred Bauder
I have done a write up of the current issues with the naming and invite you to please read and comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mdupont#Naming_and_status_of_Kosovo_p...
I suggest some things and would like to find agreement, we need to figure out the right way forward on this issue so we can improve the quality of the articles.
Even if we don't change the names of the articles, we have to make sure that the articles are usable for people if they only know the albanian or serbian name. We need to also clean up the entire Parallel article structure for the Districts of Kosovo, Districts of Kosovo (serbia) and Municipalities of Kosovo. The district scheme is totally outdated and confusing. It reduces the quality of the Wikipedia to have POV Forks. thanks mike
Mike,
That's a good start. Now take the discussion to the Kosovo project AND the Serbian project and to the English Wikipedia mailing list: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Come back here only if you are getting serious grief from one or more POV Serbian editors.
You might try a Request for comment too. Bottom line, for this purpose we are one village with both Serbians and Albanians. You're going to have to work together.
Fred Bauder
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org