Re: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

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Re: [Foundation-l] Introducing a...

rfrangi＠libero.it

5 Dec 2006 5 Dec '06

12:10 a.m.

[snip]

...

From the day I heard Angela was on the board because she had big boobs

[snip] Huh!?! Really? Where does she hide 'em? But seriously, I would like to understand if opening such a list will entitle other groups (based on gender, race, political or religious belief, and alikes) who feel Wikipedia has a bias "against" them to ask WMF to open a dedicated list. Roberto (Snowdog) ------------------------------------------------------ Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06

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Anthere

5 Dec 5 Dec

1:05 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

rfrangi(a)libero.it wrote:

...

But seriously, I would like to understand if opening such a list will entitle other groups (based on gender, race, political or religious belief, and alikes) who feel Wikipedia has a bias "against" them to ask WMF to open a dedicated list.

I would prefer a list dedicated to discuss gender bias by careful people (just kick out the trolls or invite only caring people), to a list dedicated to discuss anything, from female gender only. But then, it is very much to the editors who feel very strongly a specific need. Whether the need is to discuss gender issues, or whether the need is to discuss between girls. Both are fine to me, but show different needs. OH, by the way. During my trip to Florida, I discovered an author I never had the chance to read before. Amélie Nothomb. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amélie_Nothomb I read both Fear and Trembling and Métaphysique des tubes. I do not know what Fear and Trembling is worth in english language, but the book is really worth reading for gender issues and cultural diversity. Rare moment. Anthere

...

Roberto (Snowdog) ------------------------------------------------------ Francesco ha perso ben 45 Kg! Scopri come! Clicca qui http://click.libero.it/webnation05dic06

Oldak Quill

1:44 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

On 05/12/06, Anthere <Anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

But then, it is very much to the editors who feel very strongly a specific need. Whether the need is to discuss gender issues, or whether the need is to discuss between girls. Both are fine to me, but show different needs.

A strong need among a particular group of contributors should not always result in their need being fulfilled. If the group is demanding something that is damaging to the community, it should be rejected out of hand - at least as an official project. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com)

Gerard Meijssen

8:25 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

Oldak Quill schreef:

...

On 05/12/06, Anthere <Anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Hoi, You are absolutely right that what is damaging to the community should not be allowed. What you fail to do is show why and how the community is damaged. It is far easier to show how our community will be strengthened by the Wikichicks. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups. Also, it is not necessary to ask the community for anything. You should have noticed that these ladies are quite capable organising what is needed themselves. They do not need me or you to get a mailing list, a chat channel, their own wiki. I would also suggest that it is not for the community to agree or endorse. There is a need. What is perceived to be needed has been organised and we, the community, have been informed. Thanks, GerardM

Andre Engels

9:23 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

2006/12/5, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

You are absolutely right that what is damaging to the community should not be allowed. What you fail to do is show why and how the community is damaged. It is far easier to show how our community will be strengthened by the Wikichicks. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups.

Our community is strengthened by having the Wikichicks be part of it, tell everyone their opinions and help on Wikipedia and the other sites along with the others. It is not strengthened by putting them on a separate list so they hear noone and noone hears them. Having them do their thing and us do ours is an option. But it's a much worse option than actively working together. -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

Alphax (Wikipedia email)

1:55 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

Andre Engels wrote:

...

2006/12/5, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:

If a man makes a sexist remark on a mailing list but there are no women to hear it, is he still a misogynist? -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

Andre Engels

1:59 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

2006/12/5, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Our community is strengthened by having the Wikichicks be part of it,

tell

everyone their opinions and help on Wikipedia and the other sites along

with

the others. It is not strengthened by putting them on a separate list so they hear noone and noone hears them. Having them do their thing and us

ours is an option. But it's a much worse option than actively working together.

If a man makes a sexist remark on a mailing list but there are no women to hear it, is he still a misogynist?

What the hell does that have to do with my remark??? -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

Alphax (Wikipedia email)

2:04 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

Andre Engels wrote:

...

2006/12/5, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com>om>:

Our community is strengthened by having the Wikichicks be part of it,

tell

everyone their opinions and help on Wikipedia and the other sites along

with

the others. It is not strengthened by putting them on a separate list so they hear noone and noone hears them. Having them do their thing and us

ours is an option. But it's a much worse option than actively working together.

If a man makes a sexist remark on a mailing list but there are no women to hear it, is he still a misogynist?

What the hell does that have to do with my remark???

"If a man says something in a forest but there are no women to hear it, is he still wrong?" ... Yes, putting all the women on one list and all the men on another is /such/ a good idea. Then it doesn't matter what the men say, they won't be offending any women, will they. </sarcasm> -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

Puppy

2:16 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

...

Yes, putting all the women on one list and all the men on another is /such/ a good idea. Then it doesn't matter what the men say, they won't be offending any women, will they. </sarcasm>

Point taken; however that isn't the only argument for the list.

Andre Engels

2:22 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

2006/12/5, Puppy <puppy(a)killerchihuahua.com>om>:

...

Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

Yes, putting all the women on one list and all the men on another is /such/ a good idea. Then it doesn't matter what the men say, they won't be offending any women, will they. </sarcasm>

Point taken; however that isn't the only argument for the list.

Okay, getting back I find: arguments for: * Women have a friendlier atmosphere to talk without sexist remarks arguments against: * Does not make Wikipedia any less sexist or gender biased * Is discriminating and actually introduces gender bias * Causes some people not to have a say in discussions because those are on the 'wrong' list -- Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels

Corum O' Fallamhain

2:20 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

I am genuinely suprised that any women would want their own seperate mailing list. After all, in times gone by, men deliberately kept women seperate from men in virtually all public spheres because after all, women were "delicate", "fragile", "silly" and incapable of discussing serious issues with the "more rational" men. The arguments presented here about how women don't feel welcome here due to the "aggressive atmosphere" or whatever seem very familiar... since they are the same arguments presented by sexist, bigoted MEN in the 19th century who thought "frivolous" women weren't capable of making it doing anything else other than making our tea and cleaning our houses,. Setting up a seperate list for women is the most ironic suggestion I've seen for a long time. That's my 0.02EUR anyway. Corum. On 05/12/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Andre Engels wrote:

2006/12/5, Alphax (Wikipedia email) < alphasigmax(a)gmail.com>gt;: >> Our community is strengthened by having the Wikichicks be part of it, > tell >> everyone their opinions and help on Wikipedia and the other sites

along

> with >> the others. It is not strengthened by putting them on a separate list

>> they hear noone and noone hears them. Having them do their thing and

ours is an option. But it's a much worse option than actively working together.

If a man makes a sexist remark on a mailing list but there are no women to hear it, is he still a misogynist?

What the hell does that have to do with my remark???

Oldak Quill

10:26 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Introducing a new mailing list

On 05/12/06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I feel that any venture which discriminates against contributors based upon gender is detrimental to Wikimedia. I don't believe women and men are fundamentally different but I do accept that more women may demand a greater level of politeness and emotional awareness. There are men who demand the same. Exclusion based upon aspects of the contributor that largely don't come into their practice as a contributor (gender, race, religion, sexuality, nationality, &c.) is not good because under each category of these aspects comes great variance. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com)

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Andre Engels
Anthere
Corum O' Fallamhain
Gerard Meijssen
Oldak Quill
Puppy
rfrangi＠libero.it