Although this has been probably discussed before...
We currently have a problem with the names chosen for licenses on all wikis. Let me explain. Consider the following 5 categories. I have noticed that they all have a different name for most of the free licenses. Each language tends to translate the license name and sticks to that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B... http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will eventually be moved to commons. So all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having hundreds of redirects per free license. Juggling them makes work on commons more difficult. For example each of those redirects would need to be protected against vandalism as such vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may sneak a disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template names are also not bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
While that is a good idea, I don't see it as being feasible. Implementing dozens of template changes across even more wikis isn't easily coordinated, plus the localization factors come into issue. When content is moved /to/ the commons, the templates can/need to be updated to reflect the set used there.
What I would suggest would be a list comparing the commons templates to local projects (ie: {{pd}} on commons is {{xyz}} on some other wiki). This wouldn't be as hard to do as a mass change and would aid those on commons in properly categorizing the work brought over from local wikis.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:34 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Although this has been probably discussed before...
We currently have a problem with the names chosen for licenses on all wikis. Let me explain. Consider the following 5 categories. I have noticed that they all have a different name for most of the free licenses. Each language tends to translate the license name and sticks to that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B... http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will eventually be moved to commons. So all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having hundreds of redirects per free license. Juggling them makes work on commons more difficult. For example each of those redirects would need to be protected against vandalism as such vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may sneak a disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template names are also not bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
While that is a good idea, I don't see it as being feasible. Implementing dozens of template changes across even more wikis isn't easily coordinated, plus the localization factors come into issue. When content is moved /to/ the commons, the templates can/need to be updated to reflect the set used there.
What I would suggest would be a list comparing the commons templates to local projects (ie: {{pd}} on commons is {{xyz}} on some other wiki). This wouldn't be as hard to do as a mass change and would aid those on commons in properly categorizing the work brought over from local wikis.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:34 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Although this has been probably discussed before...
We currently have a problem with the names chosen for licenses on all
wikis.
Let me explain. Consider the following 5 categories. I have noticed
that
they all have a different name for most of the free licenses. Each
language
tends to translate the license name and sticks to that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B...
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will eventually be moved to commons.
So
all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having hundreds of redirects per
free
license. Juggling them makes work on commons more difficult. For
example
each of those redirects would need to be protected against vandalism as
such
vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may
sneak a
disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template names are also not
bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Local projects should try to be as commons compatible as possible. Different names for free licenses should be discouraged. I can provide bot assistance to make the necesary changes.
I do not feel it is not feasible to ask commons to continuously clean up after wikis. Thats a constant waste of time. We can solve the issue as early as the upload.
It is not too late to make such a change. However if fewer and fewer wikis agree to use a standarised template name the problem will become increasingly difficult.
We all should work toward our uniform goal a free encyclopedia and/or free media repository.
- White Cat
White Cat wrote:
Local projects should try to be as commons compatible as possible. Different names for free licenses should be discouraged. I can provide bot assistance to make the necesary changes.
I do not feel it is not feasible to ask commons to continuously clean up after wikis. Thats a constant waste of time. We can solve the issue as early as the upload.
It is not too late to make such a change. However if fewer and fewer wikis agree to use a standarised template name the problem will become increasingly difficult.
While I don't disagree that we should try to facilitate working across multiple projects, two observations:
1. Ultimately, Commons exists to serve the remaining projects, not the other way round. 2. Ultimately, the purpose of content (including templates) is to make things intelligible to humans, not bots.
--Michael Snow
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Michael Snow wikipedia@verizon.net wrote:
White Cat wrote:
Local projects should try to be as commons compatible as possible.
Different
names for free licenses should be discouraged. I can provide bot
assistance
to make the necesary changes.
I do not feel it is not feasible to ask commons to continuously clean up after wikis. Thats a constant waste of time. We can solve the issue as
early
as the upload.
It is not too late to make such a change. However if fewer and fewer
wikis
agree to use a standarised template name the problem will become increasingly difficult.
While I don't disagree that we should try to facilitate working across multiple projects, two observations:
- Ultimately, Commons exists to serve the remaining projects, not the
other way round. 2. Ultimately, the purpose of content (including templates) is to make things intelligible to humans, not bots.
--Michael Snow
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
You are absolutely right. But this can work both ways. Helping commons better serve is of benefit to every wiki.
I really think dealing with over two million media and over 5,000 daily uploads, commons people have their hands full as it is. People working in commons aren't machines and making their job more difficult than it already is is of no benefit to anybody.
All wikis (except de.wikipedia which adds a bild- infront of template names) as far as I can see use the same template name for creative commons licensing. We can use similar naming conventions (abbreviations) for other free licenses such as GFDL or Public Domain (PD). On English wikipedia as well as others when people refer to a policy they tend to use abbreviations. Same practice can be applied to license templates.
The template name no matter how well or long worded it may be will mean little to a human. The human should be reading the content of the template, not its name in wiki code. Template names are for the most part read by machines not humans. Humans read what is transcluded by the template.
- White Cat
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:55 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
White Cat wrote:
Local projects should try to be as commons compatible as possible.
Different
names for free licenses should be discouraged. I can provide bot
assistance
to make the necesary changes.
I do not feel it is not feasible to ask commons to continuously clean up after wikis. Thats a constant waste of time. We can solve the issue as
early
as the upload.
It is not too late to make such a change. However if fewer and fewer
wikis
agree to use a standarised template name the problem will become increasingly difficult.
While I don't disagree that we should try to facilitate working across multiple projects, two observations:
- Ultimately, Commons exists to serve the remaining projects, not the
other way round. 2. Ultimately, the purpose of content (including templates) is to make things intelligible to humans, not bots.
--Michael Snow
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
You are absolutely right. But this can work both ways. Helping commons better serve is of benefit to every wiki.
I really think dealing with over two million media and over 5,000 daily uploads, commons people have their hands full as it is. People working in commons aren't machines and making their job more difficult than it already is is of no benefit to anybody.
All wikis (except de.wikipedia which adds a bild- infront of template names) as far as I can see use the same template name for creative commons licensing. We can use similar naming conventions (abbreviations) for other free licenses such as GFDL or Public Domain (PD). On English wikipedia as well as others when people refer to a policy they tend to use abbreviations. Same practice can be applied to license templates.
The template name no matter how well or long worded it may be will mean little to a human. The human should be reading the content of the template, not its name in wiki code. Template names are for the most part read by machines not humans. Humans read what is transcluded by the template.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I don't think this is something the foundation or the board can lay down. And this list is cetainly not the way to reach the different wikis. Now language is going to be a barrier. Yes, CC tempaltes are easily standarized (as they are now) but that's "the good case". Y "PD" (public domain) doesn't necessarily is obvious to, say, a thai user with no english knowledge.
I know enlgih culture is extended, but it's against the wiki mutlilingual spirit to force all free images to use english markup
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:55 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
White Cat wrote:
Local projects should try to be as commons compatible as possible.
Different
names for free licenses should be discouraged. I can provide bot
assistance
to make the necesary changes.
I do not feel it is not feasible to ask commons to continuously
clean up
after wikis. Thats a constant waste of time. We can solve the issue
as
early
as the upload.
It is not too late to make such a change. However if fewer and
fewer
wikis
agree to use a standarised template name the problem will become increasingly difficult.
While I don't disagree that we should try to facilitate working
across
multiple projects, two observations:
- Ultimately, Commons exists to serve the remaining projects, not
the
other way round. 2. Ultimately, the purpose of content (including templates) is to
make
things intelligible to humans, not bots.
--Michael Snow
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
You are absolutely right. But this can work both ways. Helping commons better serve is of benefit to every wiki.
I really think dealing with over two million media and over 5,000 daily uploads, commons people have their hands full as it is. People working
in
commons aren't machines and making their job more difficult than it
already
is is of no benefit to anybody.
All wikis (except de.wikipedia which adds a bild- infront of template
names)
as far as I can see use the same template name for creative commons licensing. We can use similar naming conventions (abbreviations) for
other
free licenses such as GFDL or Public Domain (PD). On English wikipedia
as
well as others when people refer to a policy they tend to use
abbreviations.
Same practice can be applied to license templates.
The template name no matter how well or long worded it may be will mean little to a human. The human should be reading the content of the
template,
not its name in wiki code. Template names are for the most part read by machines not humans. Humans read what is transcluded by the template.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I don't think this is something the foundation or the board can lay down. And this list is cetainly not the way to reach the different wikis. Now language is going to be a barrier. Yes, CC tempaltes are easily standarized (as they are now) but that's "the good case". Y "PD" (public domain) doesn't necessarily is obvious to, say, a thai user with no english knowledge.
I know enlgih culture is extended, but it's against the wiki mutlilingual spirit to force all free images to use english markup
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
The tone of your response is not in the spirit of what I am trying to do here. I find it a bit repulsive. I would encourage you to tone it down.
I am not asking for an English naming. "PD" is an abbreviation like "UN". What you say isn't necessarily true. Japanese wikipedia for example uses commons compatible names for their license templates.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F%E3%81%AE%E8%91%97%E...
It is obviously more than workable.
I think Thai people can easily read the content of the template even if they completely fail to read the templates name (say "{{GFDL}}") in the code. People who edit wikipedia will figure out what such abbreviation mean in a very short period of time. People who do not edit wikipedia will never see these template names.
- White Cat
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
The tone of your response is not in the spirit of what I am trying to do here. I find it a bit repulsive. I would encourage you to tone it down.
I am not asking for an English naming. "PD" is an abbreviation like "UN". What you say isn't necessarily true. Japanese wikipedia for example uses commons compatible names for their license templates.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F%E3%81%AE%E8%91%97%E...
It is obviously more than workable.
I think Thai people can easily read the content of the template even if they completely fail to read the templates name (say "{{GFDL}}") in the code. People who edit wikipedia will figure out what such abbreviation mean in a very short period of time. People who do not edit wikipedia will never see these template names.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
People incorrectly upload images, not just when uploading from local wikis to commons, but even when uploading directly to commons. Tempalte naming won't stop that problem.
Now, what I've understood, is that you want all wikis to make a change (and that change isn't being proposed on the wikis) to accomodate commons. You also need to take int oaccount that wikis have local uplaods, and thus thir template namings need to reflect the usage and language for the wiki users, with a much higher priority than commons needs.
Commosn has always complained when wikipedias demand commons to do something, telling "we're not here to serve wikipedias, we're a project on our own" Same goes reverse, wikipedias are not to serve commons, and you want to run a bot (for an unapproved task) to change widely used templates in many wikis without first discussing it with the wikis you will be affecting
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
The tone of your response is not in the spirit of what I am trying to
do
here. I find it a bit repulsive. I would encourage you to tone it down.
I am not asking for an English naming. "PD" is an abbreviation like
"UN".
What you say isn't necessarily true. Japanese wikipedia for example
uses
commons compatible names for their license templates.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F%E3%81%AE%E8%91%97%E...
It is obviously more than workable.
I think Thai people can easily read the content of the template even if
they
completely fail to read the templates name (say "{{GFDL}}") in the
code.
People who edit wikipedia will figure out what such abbreviation mean
in a
very short period of time. People who do not edit wikipedia will never
see
these template names.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
People incorrectly upload images, not just when uploading from local wikis to commons, but even when uploading directly to commons. Tempalte naming won't stop that problem.
Now, what I've understood, is that you want all wikis to make a change (and that change isn't being proposed on the wikis) to accomodate commons. You also need to take int oaccount that wikis have local uplaods, and thus thir template namings need to reflect the usage and language for the wiki users, with a much higher priority than commons needs.
Commosn has always complained when wikipedias demand commons to do something, telling "we're not here to serve wikipedias, we're a project on our own" Same goes reverse, wikipedias are not to serve commons, and you want to run a bot (for an unapproved task) to change widely used templates in many wikis without first discussing it with the wikis you will be affecting
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
So this is merely a getting even with commons huh? Commons isn't the enemy.
- White Cat
Has nothing to do with "getting even" with commons. It's about commons doing their own work and the wikis doing theirs. While interoperability is a good idea, mass renaming would be highly disruptive. Not only would you need to agree on a good language-neutral name in and of itself (which is a task, knowing this or any other mailing list, or meta), then comes the job of localizing all of the information (you can't just rename templates. If they're going to be treated as the same, they must have /identical/ verbiage, localized), not to mention making sure every language affected has been notified (and agrees!). Now, I don't think individual wikis would mind helping gather the information for conversion tables (like I suggested), but I do think they would object to arbitrary renaming just to make the job easier for commons.
In light of all of these: no, I don't think running your bot is going to happen.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:38 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
The tone of your response is not in the spirit of what I am trying to
do
here. I find it a bit repulsive. I would encourage you to tone it down.
I am not asking for an English naming. "PD" is an abbreviation like
"UN".
What you say isn't necessarily true. Japanese wikipedia for example
uses
commons compatible names for their license templates.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F%E3%81%AE%E8%91%97%E...
It is obviously more than workable.
I think Thai people can easily read the content of the template even if
they
completely fail to read the templates name (say "{{GFDL}}") in the
code.
People who edit wikipedia will figure out what such abbreviation mean
in a
very short period of time. People who do not edit wikipedia will never
see
these template names.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
People incorrectly upload images, not just when uploading from local wikis to commons, but even when uploading directly to commons. Tempalte naming won't stop that problem.
Now, what I've understood, is that you want all wikis to make a change (and that change isn't being proposed on the wikis) to accomodate commons. You also need to take int oaccount that wikis have local uplaods, and thus thir template namings need to reflect the usage and language for the wiki users, with a much higher priority than commons needs.
Commosn has always complained when wikipedias demand commons to do something, telling "we're not here to serve wikipedias, we're a project on our own" Same goes reverse, wikipedias are not to serve commons, and you want to run a bot (for an unapproved task) to change widely used templates in many wikis without first discussing it with the wikis you will be affecting
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
So this is merely a getting even with commons huh? Commons isn't the enemy.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
If anyone would like to comment by the way, I threw up a basic draft over at [[c:Commons:Licensing_templates]]. I think it would be easier to make such a list and keep /it/ updated (and would be a good task for your bot, White_Cat), as opposed to a massive Foundation-wide renaming.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
Has nothing to do with "getting even" with commons. It's about commons doing their own work and the wikis doing theirs. While interoperability is a good idea, mass renaming would be highly disruptive. Not only would you need to agree on a good language-neutral name in and of itself (which is a task, knowing this or any other mailing list, or meta), then comes the job of localizing all of the information (you can't just rename templates. If they're going to be treated as the same, they must have /identical/ verbiage, localized), not to mention making sure every language affected has been notified (and agrees!). Now, I don't think individual wikis would mind helping gather the information for conversion tables (like I suggested), but I do think they would object to arbitrary renaming just to make the job easier for commons.
In light of all of these: no, I don't think running your bot is going to happen.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:38 PM, White Cat
wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
The tone of your response is not in the spirit of what I am trying to
do
here. I find it a bit repulsive. I would encourage you to tone it down.
I am not asking for an English naming. "PD" is an abbreviation like
"UN".
What you say isn't necessarily true. Japanese wikipedia for example
uses
commons compatible names for their license templates.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F%E3%81%AE%E8%91%97%E...
It is obviously more than workable.
I think Thai people can easily read the content of the template even if
they
completely fail to read the templates name (say "{{GFDL}}") in the
code.
People who edit wikipedia will figure out what such abbreviation mean
in a
very short period of time. People who do not edit wikipedia will never
see
these template names.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
People incorrectly upload images, not just when uploading from local wikis to commons, but even when uploading directly to commons. Tempalte naming won't stop that problem.
Now, what I've understood, is that you want all wikis to make a change (and that change isn't being proposed on the wikis) to accomodate commons. You also need to take int oaccount that wikis have local uplaods, and thus thir template namings need to reflect the usage and language for the wiki users, with a much higher priority than commons needs.
Commosn has always complained when wikipedias demand commons to do something, telling "we're not here to serve wikipedias, we're a project on our own" Same goes reverse, wikipedias are not to serve commons, and you want to run a bot (for an unapproved task) to change widely used templates in many wikis without first discussing it with the wikis you will be affecting
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
So this is merely a getting even with commons huh? Commons isn't the enemy.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
So I have to constantly clean up the mess over 750 wikis generate on a daily basis. We can avoid the entire process with little cooperation. - White Cat
On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
If anyone would like to comment by the way, I threw up a basic draft over at [[c:Commons:Licensing_templates]]. I think it would be easier to make such a list and keep /it/ updated (and would be a good task for your bot, White_Cat), as opposed to a massive Foundation-wide renaming.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
Has nothing to do with "getting even" with commons. It's about commons doing their own work and the wikis doing theirs. While interoperability is a good idea, mass renaming would be highly disruptive. Not only would you need to agree on a good language-neutral name in and of itself (which is a task, knowing this or any other mailing list, or meta), then comes the job of localizing all of the information (you can't just rename templates. If they're going to be treated as the same, they must have /identical/ verbiage, localized), not to mention making sure every language affected has been notified (and agrees!). Now, I don't think individual wikis would mind helping gather the information for conversion tables (like I suggested), but I do think they would object to arbitrary renaming just to make the job easier for commons.
In light of all of these: no, I don't think running your bot is going to happen.
-Chad
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:38 PM, White Cat
wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
The tone of your response is not in the spirit of what I am
trying to
do
here. I find it a bit repulsive. I would encourage you to tone
it down.
I am not asking for an English naming. "PD" is an abbreviation
like
"UN".
What you say isn't necessarily true. Japanese wikipedia for
example
uses
commons compatible names for their license templates.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F%E3%81%AE%E8%91%97%E...
It is obviously more than workable.
I think Thai people can easily read the content of the template
even if
they
completely fail to read the templates name (say "{{GFDL}}") in
the
code.
People who edit wikipedia will figure out what such
abbreviation mean
in a
very short period of time. People who do not edit wikipedia
will never
see
these template names.
- White Cat
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
People incorrectly upload images, not just when uploading from
local
wikis to commons, but even when uploading directly to commons. Tempalte naming won't stop that problem.
Now, what I've understood, is that you want all wikis to make a
change
(and that change isn't being proposed on the wikis) to accomodate commons. You also need to take int oaccount that wikis have local uplaods,
and
thus thir template namings need to reflect the usage and language
for
the wiki users, with a much higher priority than commons needs.
Commosn has always complained when wikipedias demand commons to do something, telling "we're not here to serve wikipedias, we're a project on our own" Same goes reverse, wikipedias are not to serve commons, and you
want
to run a bot (for an unapproved task) to change widely used
templates
in many wikis without first discussing it with the wikis you will
be
affecting
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So this is merely a getting even with commons huh? Commons isn't the
enemy.
- White Cat
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White Cat wrote:
So I have to constantly clean up the mess over 750 wikis generate on a daily basis. We can avoid the entire process with little cooperation.
You seem to share a martyrdom syndrome commonly found among mothers of teenaged sons. They feel obliged to clean up their sons' rooms yet complain about the lack of thanks that they get, even though they have far fewer than 750 sons.
As the dad of a teenaged son I am content to let him clean his own room to whatever standard he sees fit. I might complain if foul odours began to emanate from his room, but he does do his own laundry. If the visual impact becomes too much, the most that I would do is close the door.
Nobody is obliging you to "clean up the mess over 750 wikis".
Ec
Nor did I say anything about making a mess. I merely suggested that a comparison table would be helpful, and maybe your bot could work with that.
-Chad
On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
White Cat wrote:
So I have to constantly clean up the mess over 750 wikis generate on a daily basis. We can avoid the entire process with little cooperation.
You seem to share a martyrdom syndrome commonly found among mothers of teenaged sons. They feel obliged to clean up their sons' rooms yet complain about the lack of thanks that they get, even though they have far fewer than 750 sons.
As the dad of a teenaged son I am content to let him clean his own room to whatever standard he sees fit. I might complain if foul odours began to emanate from his room, but he does do his own laundry. If the visual impact becomes too much, the most that I would do is close the door.
Nobody is obliging you to "clean up the mess over 750 wikis".
Ec
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On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 9:34 AM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Although this has been probably discussed before...
We currently have a problem with the names chosen for licenses on all wikis. Let me explain. Consider the following 5 categories. I have noticed that they all have a different name for most of the free licenses. Each language tends to translate the license name and sticks to that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B... http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will eventually be moved to commons. So all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having hundreds of redirects per free license. Juggling them makes work on commons more difficult. For example each of those redirects would need to be protected against vandalism as such vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may sneak a disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template names are also not bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
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As White Cat already knows, I object to the preemptive renaming of templates on other wikis when it makes those templates more difficult for the local community to understand.
This would include using languages other than the local language when templates have words in their names (e.g. {Attribution}), or taking locally logical names and truncating them to hard to understand language neutral constructs.
The specific example that White Cat and I have recently had an argument about is {{GFDL-with-disclaimers}} on enwiki, which Cat would like to rename {{GFDL-en}} to follow Commons' naming scheme. As I have explained in that context {{GFDL-en}}, while language neutral, obscures the essential meaning of the template, since it is not simply enwiki's version of the GFDL, but rather a version of the GFDL in which additional disclaimers were attached.
Systematic naming is great, but local projects need locally intelligiable names. As much as a headache as this creates for Commons, I don't believe it is in the WMF's interest to impose a globally uniform naming scheme if doing so would be detrimental to the understanding of the local communities.
While I fully believe the projects benefit from working together, I also believe that any change project A wants to make withing project B, must first and foremost do no harm to B. The idea of imposing a standardized naming scheme for the benefit of Commons largely fails that test.
-Robert Rohde
I think that Commons is not only better equipped to handle all these redirects, but also that it make more sense to have hundreds of redirects on one wiki instead of dozens of redirects on hundreds of wikis. This is the real meat of the situation, who deals with the redirects; Commons or everyone except Commons. Training Commons users to handle these has a much better chance of success than training everyone else.
Birgitte SB
--- White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Although this has been probably discussed before...
We currently have a problem with the names chosen for licenses on all wikis. Let me explain. Consider the following 5 categories. I have noticed that they all have a different name for most of the free licenses. Each language tends to translate the license name and sticks to that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B...
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will eventually be moved to commons. So all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having hundreds of redirects per free license. Juggling them makes work on commons more difficult. For example each of those redirects would need to be protected against vandalism as such vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may sneak a disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template names are also not bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
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Why even have any redirects on any wiki? In long term you are asking for hundreds of thousands of redirects that could have been easily avoided.
- White Cat
On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I think that Commons is not only better equipped to handle all these redirects, but also that it make more sense to have hundreds of redirects on one wiki instead of dozens of redirects on hundreds of wikis. This is the real meat of the situation, who deals with the redirects; Commons or everyone except Commons. Training Commons users to handle these has a much better chance of success than training everyone else.
Birgitte SB
--- White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Although this has been probably discussed before...
We currently have a problem with the names chosen for licenses on all wikis. Let me explain. Consider the following 5 categories. I have noticed that they all have a different name for most of the free licenses. Each language tends to translate the license name and sticks to that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B...
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will eventually be moved to commons. So all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having hundreds of redirects per free license. Juggling them makes work on commons more difficult. For example each of those redirects would need to be protected against vandalism as such vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may sneak a disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template names are also not bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
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White Cat wrote:
Why even have any redirects on any wiki? In long term you are asking for hundreds of thousands of redirects that could have been easily avoided.
This is a novel question. Redirects certainly serve a variety of useful functions to deal with problems that appear at various times. They do a job. Do you have a better way that will be workable for human users, many of whom know the content well, but would not consider themselves learnèd in technological solutions.
Birgitte is right. Commons is there to serve the other projects. It can choose its own policies, but it should not expect other projects to accommodate them in their policies.
Ec
On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Birgitte SB wrote
I think that Commons is not only better equipped to handle all these redirects, but also that it make more sense to have hundreds of redirects on one wiki instead of dozens of redirects on hundreds of wikis. This is the real meat of the situation, who deals with the redirects; Commons or everyone except Commons. Training Commons users to handle these has a much better chance of success than training everyone else.
Even the suggestion of having uniform template names on all projects has received so much hostility. I have been called many names.
All of you should be ashamed of your conduct here.
- White Cat
White Cat wrote:
Even the suggestion of having uniform template names on all projects has received so much hostility. I have been called many names.
All of you should be ashamed of your conduct here.
Hostility to an unacceptable project is something that Wikimedians do very well, but I saw nothing in the comments that descended to name calling. The notion that somehow such a massive amount of cleaning-up would rest on your personal shoulders certainly invited hearty guffaws. Needing to be ashamed of that is a trivial price to pay to prevent needless regimentation.
Ec
"You seem to share a martyrdom syndrome commonly found among mothers of teenaged sons."
Thats a quote from you.
You are one giant dick aren't you? You are very good at it.
- White Cat
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:06 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
White Cat wrote:
Even the suggestion of having uniform template names on all projects has received so much hostility. I have been called many names.
All of you should be ashamed of your conduct here.
Hostility to an unacceptable project is something that Wikimedians do very well, but I saw nothing in the comments that descended to name calling. The notion that somehow such a massive amount of cleaning-up would rest on your personal shoulders certainly invited hearty guffaws. Needing to be ashamed of that is a trivial price to pay to prevent needless regimentation.
Ec
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On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:55 PM, White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
You are one giant dick aren't you? You are very good at it.
And you're out...right here. Come back when you calmed down again. Michael
I think there is no chance of convincing the wikis to move all their templates *without* leaving redirects.
Birgitte SB
--- White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Why even have any redirects on any wiki? In long term you are asking for hundreds of thousands of redirects that could have been easily avoided.
- White Cat
On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I think that Commons is not only better equipped
to
handle all these redirects, but also that it make
more
sense to have hundreds of redirects on one wiki instead of dozens of redirects on hundreds of
wikis.
This is the real meat of the situation, who deals
with
the redirects; Commons or everyone except Commons. Training Commons users to handle these has a much better chance of success than training everyone
else.
Birgitte SB
--- White Cat wikipedia.kawaii.neko@gmail.com
wrote:
Although this has been probably discussed
before...
We currently have a problem with the names
chosen
for licenses on all wikis. Let me explain. Consider the following 5
categories.
I have noticed that they all have a different name for most of the
free
licenses. Each language tends to translate the license name and sticks
to
that name.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Resim_telif_etiketleri
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Mod%C3%A8le_de_licence_d%27image
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Vorlage:Lizenz_f%C3%BCr_Bilder
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B...
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Template_copyright
Ideally all freely licensed images will
eventually
be moved to commons. So all copyright related info should be as commons compatible as possible. Translated template names cause a few problems.
This practice will lead to commons having
hundreds
of redirects per free license. Juggling them makes work on commons
more
difficult. For example each of those redirects would need to be
protected
against vandalism as such vandalism may even have legal implications. For example someone may sneak a disclaimer to GFDL templates. Such template
names
are also not bot-friendly.
I would suggest a uniformed template name on all wikis.
- White Cat
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