Whenever a serious problem raises and after years of hesitation I finally realize that I have to speak about it publicly, I have a drive to drink some rakija, feel good and forget all of the stress the new issue would give to me.
But this is very important and we have to start talking about it.
This issue lasts for years. I was first approached with this problem during the Wikimania in London. Because of my firm belief into the random nature of the nature, I thought it would be solved randomly.
Of course my intuition was wrong. Two years later nothing has changed.
Serbia has 7 millions of inhabitants, India has 1.3 billion. In few years India will have 2000 times more inhabitants of Serbia.
And when I see what a mess good people from the West [1][2] are making in Serbia, multiply that number with 2000 and realize that I have a number of Wikimedia friends from India, my anxiety freaks out.
We are not the worst, it's likely we are even the best, but we are mostly doing the same things that has been proved to be plainly wrong. Fortunately, it's just "mostly", not "completely", as we have the way to see what is wrong.
The problem we have there is bigger than any inequality gap we have in all OECD countries combined, as Wikimedia is doing poor job in solving any problem for approximately 1.2 billion of humans.
I will start with with the simple fact that Hindi, the fourth language by number of speakers [3] has Wikipedia at the 58th place by number of articles [4]. And, no, Hindi Wikipedia is not at all in the category "smaller number of very good articles".
I will continue with my completely unscientific approximation that 1/7 of the world population has been constantly represented on Wikimanias by 1/7 Wikimedians if we count genetics and 0 (zero) if we count social reality.
For those who didn't yet get it, if the upper classes of India consist even 20% of population, we don't have any representation of 1 billion of humans.
I could continue here with the background of the issue, various problems mentioned to me, frustration expressed to me, but I don't think it's useful at all.
What I think it's most useful is to start fixing the problem *now*. I want to hear Indian Wikimedians what they see as problems that should be solved, how they think that they should be solved, as well as WMF and other Wikimedia movement bodies to start tackling that problem.
This is the part of the bigger problem. All of us have similar problems in our own societies. And I think everybody should follow the resolution of this problem and think how to do the similar things in their own capacities in their own societies. (Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/120178/problem-international-development-and... [2] http://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someone_shut_up_and_li... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.
I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby.
And it seems I need one more note: The last sentence was satirical. On Jun 28, 2016 13:27, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.
I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby.
I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works very well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled way and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step if you still is an volunteer driven organisation. So since a year the Simple annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully even if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on help by both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the support from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time as me in 2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on track, so the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all on track.
So we now have process in place that really help and support small groups of enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences from Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get a local organisation in place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These experiments just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to get something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians in India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to either of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to help them evolve
Anders
Den 2016-06-28 kl. 13:36, skrev Milos Rancic:
And it seems I need one more note: The last sentence was satirical. On Jun 28, 2016 13:27, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.
I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby.
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On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote:
I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works very well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled way and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step if you still is an volunteer driven organisation. So since a year the Simple annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully even if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on help by both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the support from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time as me in 2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on track, so the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all on track.
So we now have process in place that really help and support small groups of enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences from Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get a local organisation in place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These experiments just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to get something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians in India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to either of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to help them evolve
Anders, we've been asked for help at least twice that I know, as I can witness for those two times. The first time I thought it will be solved, but it hasn't been solved after two years. Plus, a couple of previous years of getting informal complaints in relation to the WMF's behavior in India.
The *problem* is that WMF is actually participating in keeping the mess in perpetual state. And it's not about bad intentions, but about incompetence. So, let's start solving *our* problem with India, not *Indian* problem with us.
Milos, I read the points you are making in your initial post, and I cannot tell what actions you are seeking. I am not even really clear on what the problem is that you are "reporting". The best I can make of it is that you don't think there are enough articles in the Wikipedias of the languages of the Indian subcontinent, and that somehow it is the WMF's fault.
Risker/Anne
On 28 June 2016 at 11:51, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote:
I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works
very
well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled
way
and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step
if
you still is an volunteer driven organisation. So since a year the
Simple
annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully
even
if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on
help by
both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the
support
from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time as me
in
2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on track,
so
the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all
on
track.
So we now have process in place that really help and support small
groups of
enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences
from
Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get a local
organisation in
place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These
experiments
just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to
get
something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians in India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to
either
of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to help
them
evolve
Anders, we've been asked for help at least twice that I know, as I can witness for those two times. The first time I thought it will be solved, but it hasn't been solved after two years. Plus, a couple of previous years of getting informal complaints in relation to the WMF's behavior in India.
The *problem* is that WMF is actually participating in keeping the mess in perpetual state. And it's not about bad intentions, but about incompetence. So, let's start solving *our* problem with India, not *Indian* problem with us.
-- Milos
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On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Milos, I read the points you are making in your initial post, and I cannot tell what actions you are seeking. I am not even really clear on what the problem is that you are "reporting". The best I can make of it is that you don't think there are enough articles in the Wikipedias of the languages of the Indian subcontinent, and that somehow it is the WMF's fault.
Yes, it's WMF's fault and the fault of us as a movement. We are not promoting social diversity in Indian part of our movement and if we are not doing that, we are cementing the problems they have.
I've written inside of my first email that there were no representatives of the lower classes of India on Wikimania. That's something both WMF and the movement can solve by taking care about diversity. However, Wikimania participation is just a tip of the iceberg.
On 28 June 2016 at 12:24, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Milos, I read the points you are making in your initial post, and I
cannot
tell what actions you are seeking. I am not even really clear on what
the
problem is that you are "reporting". The best I can make of it is that
you
don't think there are enough articles in the Wikipedias of the languages
of
the Indian subcontinent, and that somehow it is the WMF's fault.
Yes, it's WMF's fault and the fault of us as a movement. We are not promoting social diversity in Indian part of our movement and if we are not doing that, we are cementing the problems they have.
I've written inside of my first email that there were no representatives of the lower classes of India on Wikimania. That's something both WMF and the movement can solve by taking care about diversity. However, Wikimania participation is just a tip of the iceberg.
Erm....there were few representatives of the "lower classes" of any language at Wikimania. This should not surprise you. The "lower classes" (i.e., the economically disadvantages) of all nationalities and linguistic heritages are disadvantaged on Wikimedia projects, simply because it is nearly impossible to edit without financial/economic resources: ability to purchase electronics, to pay for an internet/mobile phone connection, to have reliable internet access, or to have time when one is not carrying out activities to ensure basic survival, etc. It is a reality that in most European, Australasian and North American contexts, a significant majority of the population is able to overcome the financial and economic barriers to participation, and that there are sizeable portions (although perhaps not a majority) who are able to overcome these barriers in some areas of Asia and South/Central America. We know that there are huge swaths of Asia and Africa in particular where the majority of the population are not able to cross those four barriers I identified.
In many cases and many regions, the first challenge is more likely to be making the information accessible to people. If they can't even read Wikipedia, they're certainly not going to edit it.
Risker
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
Anders, we've been asked for help at least twice that I know, as I can witness for those two times. The first time I thought it will be solved, but it hasn't been solved after two years. Plus, a couple of previous years of getting informal complaints in relation to the WMF's behavior in India.
Perhaps you could be tempted into plainly saying what "it" was in these reports, so that you do not remain the only one in this thread able to judge the facts.
The *problem* is that WMF is actually participating in keeping the
mess in perpetual state. And it's not about bad intentions, but about incompetence. So, let's start solving *our* problem with India, not *Indian* problem with us.
A good step toward solving "our"/"the" problem is to name it. In the meantime, the one problem you named -- lack of representation of the "lower classes" from India in Wikimania -- seems to me to be far from our most pressing, or most tractable, problem. (Are "the lower classes" from Serbia represented in Wikimania?)
A. -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
(Are "the lower classes" from Serbia represented in Wikimania?)
While I could complain about a number things to WMRS, this is an obvious exception. Two of three Wikimedians funded by WMRS actually belong to the economically disadvantaged category.
On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem. I'd add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something -- which might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions -- would help, as well.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem. I'd add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something -- which might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions -- would help, as well.
I didn't say Risker is, for example, defensive; I said Asaf is defensive.
If you have enough information on the issue, constructive approach is not to pretend to ask for more information, but to talk about what you know.
Hey Milos,
Just wanted to let you know about the research that just wrapped up in India as a part of the New Readers project [1].
A team of staff and external researchers actually spent the last couple of weeks in Delhi and Chennai gathering data in India through intensive on-the-ground research. The research was largely focused on people who are not yet editors (or even necessarily readers) of our projects so that we can understand how people approach knowledge, learning, the internet, etc..
We also actively sought out meetings with community members in India while the team was there, and are looking forward to continuing to connect now that the team is back home.
This follows similar endeavors in Nigeria and Mexico, which have already led to some really interesting insights that'll help to shape how the Foundation operates within similar markets.
All of the research is currently being analyzed and the findings will be shared in the next few months (WMF Q1) along with as much of the raw data as possible.
We know how important India is, and also how large a challenge it'll be to fully understand and work with users (and prospective users) there. This research project will provide a good foundation for further work and outreach in India and similarly complex regions.
Best, Anne
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
wrote:
On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem.
I'd
add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something --
which
might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions --
would
help, as well.
I didn't say Risker is, for example, defensive; I said Asaf is defensive.
If you have enough information on the issue, constructive approach is not to pretend to ask for more information, but to talk about what you know.
-- Milos
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On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 7:27 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
wrote:
On the rest: being defensive is not useful; being constructive is.
I don't see anything in this thread that looks defensive; what I see (and thoroughly agree with) is a request to more clearly define the problem.
I'd
add that some clarity around who "we" are who should do something --
which
might be several categories of "we" for different kinds of actions --
would
help, as well.
I didn't say Risker is, for example, defensive; I said Asaf is defensive.
If you have enough information on the issue, constructive approach is not to pretend to ask for more information, but to talk about what you know.
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still* do not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on. In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports." I don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
I do strongly agree with Gerard that a better interface for presenting the excellent work of Wikisource communities to readers should be a high priority.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still* do not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on. In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports." I don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
The background goes this way...
I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.
However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.
But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.
So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.
I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they *are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Milos Rancic Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2016 8:43 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still* do not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on. In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports." I don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
The background goes this way...
I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.
However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.
But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.
So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.
I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they *are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
-- Milos
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On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people,
Yes, this is a difficult line to walk. I have encountered this issue many times in the Wikimedia world. In some cases, it simply means that public discussion is not a useful tool for addressing the issue. I don't know whether or not that is the case here, but it seems like a strong possibility.
I am not cryptic at all.
Well, thank you for clarifying that point for us ;)
It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
One must know what something is, before one can make a judgment about how important it is. So no, I don't think that is what's at issue here.
Speaking for myself, I believe (and have always believed) that improving the ability of disadvantaged populations to engage with the Wikimedia projects is a top priority. I know the same is true of many others on this list as well. I can tell from your messages that you are concerned about something in that realm; but I don't get a clear enough picture of what you're talking about to see how I can contribute to a discussion.
I can reassert the general point as I did above, so I guess I am politically correct. And I can redouble my efforts as an individual and as a business owner to educate, guide, mentor, and learn from/with those around me. Beyond that, I'll leave this discussion to those who understand what it's about.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
I am quite amused; it doesn't happen to me much that people take so much care to protect my privacy. I do appreciate it, though.
In case nobody guessed it, I am (probably) "Mr. Western Wikipedian". The language gap in Wikipedias has always concerned me since the very first day I tried editing Wikipedia in 2004—as a volunteer, and later as a WMF staff member. I exchanged a few words about this with Mr. Rancic at Wikimania because I know he cares about it. (In case you're wondering, I don't know who are the other people that Mr. Rancic is mentioning.)
The problem is fairly easy to
It is a problem that some of the most spoken languages of the world have very little information online. In Wikipedia and on other websites. I'm talking about Hindi, Bengali, Punjabi, Indonesian, Tagalog, and a few others. India is just the biggest of the countries in question, but certainly not the only one. There's even less information online in smaller languages, which is just as bad, even though they are smaller. It's a deep social problem that bothers me more and more as the years go by, and as I learn about these languages, about the countries in which they are spoken and about the people who speak them—especially those of them who don't speak any other language.
The WMF could solve _some of it_. I am not entirely sure how. It's a vicious circle of sociolinguistics making dominant languages even more dominant, and less demanded languages even less demanded. It has a lot to do with culture and politics, a bit of which I understand, and a lot of which I don't.
As a developer of the Content Translation tool and other related things, I very naïvely hope that I (not alone, of course!) am helping to resolving a tiny bit of it. But I cannot resolve all of it, and WMF alone cannot resolve all of it. Even though Wikimedia's famous "every single human being" motto definitely puts this problem in Wikimedia's declared scope, it's way too big and complex to be resolved with the resources the WMF currently has. It's better to acknowledge that we cannot solve all of it quickly, even though we'd love to, then to pretend that we'll save the world the next week. (Bringing other people to Wikimania will also not save it, certainly not by itself. That said, variety is a good thing.)
On an optimistic note, I have to reiterate that the recently started research project that Anne Gomez mentioned is probably the best step that the WMF ever made in this direction. I've been waiting for something like this to happen since 2012 or so. It's an important acknowledgement that there are a lot of things that we don't know, and that we want to try to learn them. It's only a small first step, but a truly good one, and I'm eager to see how it develops.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-06-28 21:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still*
do
not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on. In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports."
I
don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
The background goes this way...
I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.
However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.
But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.
So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.
I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they *are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
-- Milos
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I completely agree with Amir.
Wikipedia is an unachievable goal itself. And this is precisely what it takes us to do It. we have shown the world that only starting things, they move forward. Let's improve coverage, one edit at a time.
As a tip: keep in mind other people's interests while editing articles ( geographical, cultural, linguistical or event political) trying to discover and understand the others while editing is one of the greatest prices Wikipedia can give to us everyday. This could also bring some -needed- empathy to the movement itself.
Best
Àlex Hinojo Amical Wikimedia
El 28 juny 2016, a les 21:37, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il va escriure:
I am quite amused; it doesn't happen to me much that people take so much care to protect my privacy. I do appreciate it, though.
In case nobody guessed it, I am (probably) "Mr. Western Wikipedian". The language gap in Wikipedias has always concerned me since the very first day I tried editing Wikipedia in 2004—as a volunteer, and later as a WMF staff member. I exchanged a few words about this with Mr. Rancic at Wikimania because I know he cares about it. (In case you're wondering, I don't know who are the other people that Mr. Rancic is mentioning.)
The problem is fairly easy to
It is a problem that some of the most spoken languages of the world have very little information online. In Wikipedia and on other websites. I'm talking about Hindi, Bengali, Punjabi, Indonesian, Tagalog, and a few others. India is just the biggest of the countries in question, but certainly not the only one. There's even less information online in smaller languages, which is just as bad, even though they are smaller. It's a deep social problem that bothers me more and more as the years go by, and as I learn about these languages, about the countries in which they are spoken and about the people who speak them—especially those of them who don't speak any other language.
The WMF could solve _some of it_. I am not entirely sure how. It's a vicious circle of sociolinguistics making dominant languages even more dominant, and less demanded languages even less demanded. It has a lot to do with culture and politics, a bit of which I understand, and a lot of which I don't.
As a developer of the Content Translation tool and other related things, I very naïvely hope that I (not alone, of course!) am helping to resolving a tiny bit of it. But I cannot resolve all of it, and WMF alone cannot resolve all of it. Even though Wikimedia's famous "every single human being" motto definitely puts this problem in Wikimedia's declared scope, it's way too big and complex to be resolved with the resources the WMF currently has. It's better to acknowledge that we cannot solve all of it quickly, even though we'd love to, then to pretend that we'll save the world the next week. (Bringing other people to Wikimania will also not save it, certainly not by itself. That said, variety is a good thing.)
On an optimistic note, I have to reiterate that the recently started research project that Anne Gomez mentioned is probably the best step that the WMF ever made in this direction. I've been waiting for something like this to happen since 2012 or so. It's an important acknowledgement that there are a lot of things that we don't know, and that we want to try to learn them. It's only a small first step, but a truly good one, and I'm eager to see how it develops.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-06-28 21:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still*
do
not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion on. In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and "reports."
I
don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you feel it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers; maybe so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
The background goes this way...
I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.
However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.
But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.
So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.
I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they *are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
-- Milos
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Milos and everyone.
I just want to quickly add that in addition to the New Readers research project, the Global Reach team https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach is also working to expand Wikimedia’s readership and awareness in India. We have contracted VotoMobile https://www.votomobile.org/, an international phone survey company to reach out to people across India on their mobile phones. We have chosen to conduct phone surveys to eliminate the internet access dependency; this way we can reach people who are not online or that are online but not using Wikipedia, Wikisource or any of our projects.
As we speak, we are surveying 6000 people across almost all regions of India (see list below). This survey is being offered in 11 local languages (Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Hindi, Punjabi, Marathi, Gujarati, Odia, Bengali, Telugu, Kannada) plus English in order to include as many different people and perspectives as possible.
The purpose of this survey is to to learn more about how people in India use mobile phones and the internet to access knowledge and information. During the survey, we ask questions about smartphone and network availability, whether they have ever heard of us, what barriers they experience, and how they use Wikipedia and the internet. The survey results for India will be available on our Meta page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach/Insights this July-August.
Last but not least, our Global Reach team has a member - Smriti Gupta - who is based in India. Smriti works to build partnerships across Asia. Currently, she is exploring different types of partnerships, including a pilot with the local government in India that would help our editing community increase the Gujarati content for Wikimedia projects.
Please feel free to reach out our team if you would like to learn more about our work in India and elsewhere.
Best regards,
Adele
List of regions targeted by the India phone survey:
Maharashtra
Gujarat
Punjab
Haryana
Himachal Pradesh
West Bengal
Assam
Madhya Pradesh
Odisha
Chhattisgarh
Andhra Pradesh
Andhra Prades
Tamil Nadu
Kerala
Karnataka
Telangana
Uttar Pradesh
Bihar
Rajasthan
Jharkhand
Uttarakhand
Jammu and Kashmir
Delhi
NE states (Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Manipur and Tripura)
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Àlex Hinojo alexhinojo@gmail.com wrote:
I completely agree with Amir.
Wikipedia is an unachievable goal itself. And this is precisely what it takes us to do It. we have shown the world that only starting things, they move forward. Let's improve coverage, one edit at a time.
As a tip: keep in mind other people's interests while editing articles ( geographical, cultural, linguistical or event political) trying to discover and understand the others while editing is one of the greatest prices Wikipedia can give to us everyday. This could also bring some -needed- empathy to the movement itself.
Best
Àlex Hinojo Amical Wikimedia
El 28 juny 2016, a les 21:37, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> va escriure:
I am quite amused; it doesn't happen to me much that people take so much care to protect my privacy. I do appreciate it, though.
In case nobody guessed it, I am (probably) "Mr. Western Wikipedian". The language gap in Wikipedias has always concerned me since the very first
day
I tried editing Wikipedia in 2004—as a volunteer, and later as a WMF
staff
member. I exchanged a few words about this with Mr. Rancic at Wikimania because I know he cares about it. (In case you're wondering, I don't know who are the other people that Mr. Rancic is mentioning.)
The problem is fairly easy to
It is a problem that some of the most spoken languages of the world have very little information online. In Wikipedia and on other websites. I'm talking about Hindi, Bengali, Punjabi, Indonesian, Tagalog, and a few others. India is just the biggest of the countries in question, but certainly not the only one. There's even less information online in
smaller
languages, which is just as bad, even though they are smaller. It's a
deep
social problem that bothers me more and more as the years go by, and as I learn about these languages, about the countries in which they are spoken and about the people who speak them—especially those of them who don't speak any other language.
The WMF could solve _some of it_. I am not entirely sure how. It's a vicious circle of sociolinguistics making dominant languages even more dominant, and less demanded languages even less demanded. It has a lot to do with culture and politics, a bit of which I understand, and a lot of which I don't.
As a developer of the Content Translation tool and other related things,
I
very naïvely hope that I (not alone, of course!) am helping to resolving
a
tiny bit of it. But I cannot resolve all of it, and WMF alone cannot resolve all of it. Even though Wikimedia's famous "every single human being" motto definitely puts this problem in Wikimedia's declared scope, it's way too big and complex to be resolved with the resources the WMF currently has. It's better to acknowledge that we cannot solve all of it quickly, even though we'd love to, then to pretend that we'll save the world the next week. (Bringing other people to Wikimania will also not
save
it, certainly not by itself. That said, variety is a good thing.)
On an optimistic note, I have to reiterate that the recently started research project that Anne Gomez mentioned is probably the best step that the WMF ever made in this direction. I've been waiting for something like this to happen since 2012 or so. It's an important acknowledgement that there are a lot of things that we don't know, and that we want to try to learn them. It's only a small first step, but a truly good one, and I'm eager to see how it develops.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-06-28 21:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I *still*
do
not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion
on.
In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and
"reports."
I
don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you
feel
it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers;
maybe
so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
The background goes this way...
I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.
However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.
But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.
So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.
I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they *are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
-- Milos
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Milos, I hope this wasn't the participation you expected when you said you wanted to hear from Indian wikipedians. ;)
While I know where Milos, Gerard and even Amir are coming from, I don't know about this talk of "lower-class". Unless you are not talking about economics and income level here, but actual class - a caste system, which I doubt.
I don't know if it's inconsiderate, or some weird sort of political-correctness where you make people feel uneasy about their own identity, unintentionally I assume. You had indian wikipedians at wikimania for a long time, you still do. There is the indian chapter, random wikipedians from India and Asaf, still has CIS staff coming and going I presume. I'm not sure if they fulfil this quota of "lower-class", for you to feel truly represented. Your typical version of indian, shouldn't be able to speak english? just one indian language, that you then feel you are helping? Would it have to fulfil some other stereotype about the way they dress, sound or behave - "Indian". If I apply that standards within US or anywhere else, they sound incredibly prejudiced. Are you less of a serb because you speak english or are in a particular income-level?
Then as others said, is that who "we" are? Is social outreach and diversity relevant to dispensation of free knowledge? Why aren't there more homeless and people from low-income households from the US, Europe, Australia at wikimania? should we reserve scholarships now based on income-levels?(but then everyone would just mark it as low). I suppose it's a whole host of identical problems affecting those groups that affects Indians. Some are more complex and compounded, as I rant on about below, but the largest are same as any other country. Every country would have its own "lower-class".
I also fail to see how getting your typical imagined version of "lower-class" indian to a wikimania will have a measurable effect? Will attending a 3 day conference in another country change his/her life? change wikipedia?
Also, first time I am hearing of these WMF activities in India. Nice. Research on new readers, in my city of all. I would be interested to see the results. I don't know about the team member "in India", in-charge of partnerships, sounds vague and historically, not a good direction. I hope you steer away from hiring too many consultants this time. ;)
I would also invite Milos, Gerard and anyone else interested to consider spending some time in India itself before they start talking about how to fix problems (real or imagined) of my country. As I wrote on Gerard's blog 6 years ago[1], It's not as simple as you think it is. Rather uninteresting and long rant below, for those linguistic questions you asked.
== Rant: tl;dr version (for non linguaphiles) - 99 problems, english isn't one. ==
As for the sociolinguistic, ethnolinguistic, socio-economic factors, they are too varied. It's like this. India has a great degree of language fragmentation. Going from different dialects and borrowed words to entirely different syntax, alphabets and language systems. There is still some degree of homogeneity based on language belts around the country, similar to social belts in other countries. Language belts yield several groups of sub-languages and dialects that are similar but differ greatly outside that particular language belt.
The dominant problem, as others cited, is economical. Chances are, if someone is able to find a computer and get online, they know english, though smartphones have been highly disruptive of this trend in the last decade. It is highly compounded by the fact, India is highly bilingual. The most basic form of primary education in school covers english, just like it covers some form of maths or science. This is necessary within India itself. Primary education where children are taught to read and write their own mother-tongue usually almost always has some degree of english lessons. At times, this becomes the only lingua-franca within India itself. If I travel to the south of my country or to the east, most times the only language I would be able to communicate easily in, would be english. If you travel within India, majority of the billboards and even road signs outside metros that you will encounter, will be either in english or bilingual, as would official communications from courts, government bodies and so on.
Languages also have a tendency of dividing the population. Some take their linguistic identity as a sign of pride but there have been right-wing campaigns to promote division based on the same linguistic lines. It's not always bad, linguistic pride lead to a lot of good effort for the projects. Wikitionary and wikisource benefited a lot when I saw a few years ago. In those cases, highly educated, socially mobile individuals used our projects as a platform for protecting and promoting their languages. But the communities were small, between 10-30 active users. Their efforts were short-lived, compounding an encyclopedia is giant task that isn't complete in the largest language yet, no matter how much effort such a small group would put it, it would never get enough attention to be usable. This is where wikisource and wiktionary excel at. Any effort directed towards that direction usually yielded enormously beneficial results, even years later. The books uploaded, translated or words added were highly relevant.
Then there is the issue of writing scripts. With so much linguistic homogeneity in India, it has a large degree of heterogeneity in writing scripts. For example. Khariboli dialect[2], on which hindi and urdu are based on, are phonetically identical, yet written in two very different scripts. One utilising persian/arabic alphabets and the other using sanskrit. The problem of entering these scripts using keyboards is a draconian task for many (me included). The latin alphabets and english system is entirely alien to how these alphabetic systems work, though support has grown by leaps and bounds in the last decade thanks to Google, Microsoft and other standardisation/localisation bodies - it is still no easy task. There is just too much ease in using english alphabets, given familiarity with english, it creates linguistic-mobility between these two systems. The indian youth for example, came up with things like "hinglish"[4] utilising the same words phonetically, just written in latin script using english keyboards. It's popularity was short-lived.
The system overall works, hindi speaker base isn't threatened or contracting, it's actually growing very fast. It was/is the fourth largest in the world after english[3] like it has been for a long time. Both living separately and not encroaching on each other's base.
The dominance here is actually not of phonetic languages but the alphabets. I would point to the first picture on the article here[5] for reference. The established and dominant alphabet system is english. This creates a linguistic mobility where moving in-between two writing system and languages becomes inherent. The issue therefore, is a complicated one.
Amir, you said certain sociolinguistic factors make the dominant language more dominant. Well, hindi would be the dominant language within india, with over 300 million native speakers and half a billion or more, who use it as a second language. It's only behind english in terms of native speakers[3]. It's also not in any shape or form of decline. Do you think you find evidence of that on Wikipedia? Is it larger or better than German one? the fragmentation you have is within india, so many languages prohibit easy exchange. Social mobility adds a english as a deciding factor.
What is the priority for our readers? to find the best and most information about a subject, or finding it in one of the two languages they already know? Also, to consider, Google translate has improved by leaps and bounds in indian languages, running an english language article through a local machine translation usually yields a very coherent translation making most efforts in this direction, moot.
I think this is enough rant for now. Apologies to those who read it all.
Kind regards (looking forward to being robocalled for the survey) Theo
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2010/07/state-of-wiki-in-india-part-1.ht... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khariboli_dialect [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers [4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinglish [5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet
On Wed, Jun 29, 2016, Adele Vrana avrana@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Milos and everyone.
I just want to quickly add that in addition to the New Readers research project, the Global Reach team https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach is also working to expand Wikimedia’s readership and awareness in India. We have contracted VotoMobile https://www.votomobile.org/, an international phone survey company to reach out to people across India on their mobile phones. We have chosen to conduct phone surveys to eliminate the internet access dependency; this way we can reach people who are not online or that are online but not using Wikipedia, Wikisource or any of our projects.
As we speak, we are surveying 6000 people across almost all regions of India (see list below). This survey is being offered in 11 local languages (Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, Hindi, Punjabi, Marathi, Gujarati, Odia, Bengali, Telugu, Kannada) plus English in order to include as many different people and perspectives as possible.
The purpose of this survey is to to learn more about how people in India use mobile phones and the internet to access knowledge and information. During the survey, we ask questions about smartphone and network availability, whether they have ever heard of us, what barriers they experience, and how they use Wikipedia and the internet. The survey results for India will be available on our Meta page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Reach/Insights this July-August.
Last but not least, our Global Reach team has a member - Smriti Gupta - who is based in India. Smriti works to build partnerships across Asia. Currently, she is exploring different types of partnerships, including a pilot with the local government in India that would help our editing community increase the Gujarati content for Wikimedia projects.
Please feel free to reach out our team if you would like to learn more about our work in India and elsewhere.
Best regards,
Adele
List of regions targeted by the India phone survey:
Maharashtra
Gujarat
Punjab
Haryana
Himachal Pradesh
West Bengal
Assam
Madhya Pradesh
Odisha
Chhattisgarh
Andhra Pradesh
Andhra Prades
Tamil Nadu
Kerala
Karnataka
Telangana
Uttar Pradesh
Bihar
Rajasthan
Jharkhand
Uttarakhand
Jammu and Kashmir
Delhi
NE states (Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Manipur and Tripura)
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Àlex Hinojo alexhinojo@gmail.com wrote:
I completely agree with Amir.
Wikipedia is an unachievable goal itself. And this is precisely what it takes us to do It. we have shown the world that only starting things,
they
move forward. Let's improve coverage, one edit at a time.
As a tip: keep in mind other people's interests while editing articles ( geographical, cultural, linguistical or event political) trying to
discover
and understand the others while editing is one of the greatest prices Wikipedia can give to us everyday. This could also bring some -needed- empathy to the movement itself.
Best
Àlex Hinojo Amical Wikimedia
El 28 juny 2016, a les 21:37, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> va escriure:
I am quite amused; it doesn't happen to me much that people take so
much
care to protect my privacy. I do appreciate it, though.
In case nobody guessed it, I am (probably) "Mr. Western Wikipedian".
The
language gap in Wikipedias has always concerned me since the very first
day
I tried editing Wikipedia in 2004—as a volunteer, and later as a WMF
staff
member. I exchanged a few words about this with Mr. Rancic at Wikimania because I know he cares about it. (In case you're wondering, I don't
know
who are the other people that Mr. Rancic is mentioning.)
The problem is fairly easy to
It is a problem that some of the most spoken languages of the world
have
very little information online. In Wikipedia and on other websites. I'm talking about Hindi, Bengali, Punjabi, Indonesian, Tagalog, and a few others. India is just the biggest of the countries in question, but certainly not the only one. There's even less information online in
smaller
languages, which is just as bad, even though they are smaller. It's a
deep
social problem that bothers me more and more as the years go by, and
as I
learn about these languages, about the countries in which they are
spoken
and about the people who speak them—especially those of them who don't speak any other language.
The WMF could solve _some of it_. I am not entirely sure how. It's a vicious circle of sociolinguistics making dominant languages even more dominant, and less demanded languages even less demanded. It has a lot
to
do with culture and politics, a bit of which I understand, and a lot of which I don't.
As a developer of the Content Translation tool and other related
things,
I
very naïvely hope that I (not alone, of course!) am helping to
resolving
a
tiny bit of it. But I cannot resolve all of it, and WMF alone cannot resolve all of it. Even though Wikimedia's famous "every single human being" motto definitely puts this problem in Wikimedia's declared
scope,
it's way too big and complex to be resolved with the resources the WMF currently has. It's better to acknowledge that we cannot solve all of
it
quickly, even though we'd love to, then to pretend that we'll save the world the next week. (Bringing other people to Wikimania will also not
save
it, certainly not by itself. That said, variety is a good thing.)
On an optimistic note, I have to reiterate that the recently started research project that Anne Gomez mentioned is probably the best step
that
the WMF ever made in this direction. I've been waiting for something
like
this to happen since 2012 or so. It's an important acknowledgement that there are a lot of things that we don't know, and that we want to try
to
learn them. It's only a small first step, but a truly good one, and I'm eager to see how it develops.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2016-06-28 21:43 GMT+03:00 Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
My last mail for today, so Anne, just to say that I really appreciate what you've done, but I'll comment in a bit more detail tomorrow.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I'll leave the "defensive" bit aside, and just reiterate that I
*still*
do
not understand exactly what problem you're trying to focus discussion
on.
In the piece of text Asaf quoted, you used the words "it" and
"reports."
I
don't know what you intend by those words. Maybe for some reason you
feel
it's Asaf's job to clarify that for the rest of the list's readers;
maybe
so. I don't have more to contribute on this point.
The background goes this way...
I've been approached privately two years ago about the issues that bother significant part of Indian Wikimedian community. As I think that's in the range of quite solvable issues, my instinct was to talk with the relevant people inside of the Wikimedia movement (not just WMF). I thought it's been solved and I forgot for that. However, two years later I am listening about the same problems. So, I am pissed off enough to start talking about that on this list.
However, if I say everything I know, I would for sure harm a number of people. And I am not willing to do that no matter how pissed off or drunk I am. The situation is not good, but far from being any kind of catastrophe.
But I want to see the problem solved. So, I am giving quite enough of information about the problems (cf. my first email, then my response to Risker) and expect the beginning of communication. The responses are telling me what's safe to talk about and what's not. I also expect to be convinced that the most of Indian Wikimedians will be content at the end of this process.
So, the research is very good thing and I am again positively surprised by the attitude of WMF. However, that's not enough.
I also want to say that what I said in my first email and in my response to Risker is the core of the problem. Many particular issues are not useful (and could be harmful). I understand that many people on this list don't realize how those issues are important, but they *are* vitally important to the Indian part of our movement.
In other words, although I am not disclosing all of information I have, mostly to protect privacy of some people, I am not cryptic at all. It is just a matter of what's perceived as important to a Western and what to an Indian Wikimedian.
-- Milos
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*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate. https://donate.wikimedia.org/* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
People concerned with the lack of content in Indic languages might enjoy, "Digital Divisions of Labor and Informational Magnetism: Mapping Participation in Wikipedia", recent research co-authored by Mark Graham of the Oxford Internet Institute. The problem is not specific to India.
Quoting from the paper's abstract,
Complicating this issue [of imbalanced participation] is the fact that
participation
from the world's economic peripheries tends to focus on editing about the
world's
cores rather than their own local regions. These results ultimately point
to an
informational magnetism that is cast by the world's economic cores,
virtuous and
vicious cycles that make it difficult to reconfigure networks and
hierarchies of
knowledge production.
Overview: http://cii.oii.ox.ac.uk/2015/09/07/new-publication-digital-divisions-of-labo...
Pre-publication PDF: http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=545088089111020079026122120126093... -Adam [[mw:User:Adamw]]
Hoi, What I know is that in India Wikisource has proven to be very effective and important to promote the use of local languages. As a member of the language committee I am in favour to have a Wikisource almost as easily as a Wikipedia.
The one thing that the WMF fails to do is support the finished work with a slick interface for consumers of books. This is imho true for any flavour of Wikisource. We have not considered how to increase the number of readers of freely licensed books and consequently we do both our readers and our Wikisourcerers a disservice. Thanks, GerardM
On 28 June 2016 at 16:47, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote:
I have been active in FDC and followed closely all applicants. It works very well when it comes to promote small affiliates to grow in a controlled way and ensuring that money is spent wisely. The FDC, though, demand an elaborate plan, and application, which can be (too) hard as a first step if you still is an volunteer driven organisation. So since a year the Simple annual plan grant now exist, and I have been part in this and its seven applicants that has been through that process. And it works wonderfully even if there has been quite complicated issues in the application. The application formality is much easier and the applicant gets hands-on help by both WMF staff and also by a peer from an existing affiliate. And the feedback we have received has been very very positive, specially the support from peers. And for you Milos who was in ChapCom at the same time as me in 2008, you should rejoice as much as me that now also Brazil is on track, so the "complicated" affiliates in 2008, Catala, Brazil an US, are now all on track.
So we now have process in place that really help and support small groups of enthusiastic Wikimedians to grow in a controlled way becoming well functioning chapters. We have also since 2008 learnt, from experiences from Brazil and India, that to try by "outsiders" to get a local organisation in place that will grow in a good way, just has not worked. These experiments just hindered (and delayed) natural good establishment.
So my learning is that it is counter productive to try as an outsider to get something happen. We have to await until groups of clever Wikimedians in India with the right ambition etc are ready to enter applications to either of the grant programs, and then there are mechanisms in place to help them evolve
Anders
Den 2016-06-28 kl. 13:36, skrev Milos Rancic:
And it seems I need one more note: The last sentence was satirical. On Jun 28, 2016 13:27, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.
I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby.
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Still not clear. Why?
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Milos Rancic Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2016 1:28 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.
I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7640 / Virus Database: 4613/12507 - Release Date: 06/28/16
Your skills at satire do not work for me. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Milos Rancic Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2016 1:28 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Our problem with India
On Jun 28, 2016 09:58, "Milos Rancic" millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(Hint for American Wikimedians: Trump supporters are your next target for positive discrimination.)
It seems I have to clarify this sentence.
I didn't say Trump, I didn't say Cruz, I didn't say Cruz supporters, I said Trump supporters.
I have in mind very specific population, genuinely scared by the privileged Mexican illegal immigrants, working lazy for the American agricultural industry for $5/h or less and supported by Bay Area hipsters and Jewish lobby. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7640 / Virus Database: 4613/12507 - Release Date: 06/28/16
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