I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are sighted that need the help.
I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer stuff that is simple.
hi,
while this proposal will not add value for the blind, most likely (they surely have their preferred solutions already), it may be useful for those who do not have time to look for audio output, but would appreciate it if it was available straightaway. I think there is some benefit in that, clearly.
best,
dj "pundit"
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are sighted that need the help.
I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer stuff that is simple.
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting to share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation of a young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a person studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the opportunity to be in his shoes.
The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio almost unintelligible for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for that including mobile OS.
The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio that everyone of us is experienced to use.
The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with headset and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of Content at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of the Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page, and the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
Regards
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are sighted that need the help.
I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer stuff that is simple.
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
This is a very enlightening discussion, but it's painfully apparent that there is no input in this discussion from someone who is sight-impaired, or input from an organisation like RNIB http://www.rnib.org.uk/about-rnib/web-accessibility-statement.
Getting a wide range of this input is really key before this can go much further.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 28 May 2015 at 10:58, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting to share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation of a young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a person studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the opportunity to be in his shoes.
The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio almost unintelligible for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for that including mobile OS.
The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio that everyone of us is experienced to use.
The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with headset and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of Content at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of the Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page, and the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
Regards
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to
put
on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are sighted that need the help.
I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer stuff that is simple.
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
2015-05-28 12:32 GMT+02:00 Richard Symonds richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk:
This is a very enlightening discussion, but it's painfully apparent that there is no input in this discussion from someone who is sight-impaired, or input from an organisation like RNIB http://www.rnib.org.uk/about-rnib/web-accessibility-statement.
Getting a wide range of this input is really key before this can go much further.
This is for sure a field were chapters and other local affiliates can make good use of partnerships with local associations of blind or sight-impaired people.
For exampla, In the Archeowiki project by Wikimedia Italia (developed in the years 2012 - 2014) we did some outreach work with the Insituto dei ciechi di Milano (Institute of Blind People of Milan, one of the oldest charities/foundations in Italy, being founded in 1840). This comprised some lessons about prehistoric, extra-European archaeology done by groups of archaeologists and Wikipedia that were specifically trained. In these lessons there were a set of artefacts that could be touched and also some 3D printed reproduction.
Cristian
Yes this remark is only focused to give the feedback that our user experience is really different from that of the real users.
A question was done about the testing and in any country there are local associations that can give tests (in Italian language there is unitalsi).
An additional remark is that there is an additional reason to improve pages for blind persons and the reason is that the bots for SEO are "blind". They read the pages, don't see them.
Regards Il 28/Mag/2015 12:33, "Richard Symonds" richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk ha scritto:
This is a very enlightening discussion, but it's painfully apparent that there is no input in this discussion from someone who is sight-impaired, or input from an organisation like RNIB http://www.rnib.org.uk/about-rnib/web-accessibility-statement.
Getting a wide range of this input is really key before this can go much further.
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 28 May 2015 at 10:58, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting
to
share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation
of a
young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a
person
studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the opportunity to be in his shoes.
The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use
always
a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio almost unintelligible for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools
for
that including mobile OS.
The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial
for
them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of
audio
that everyone of us is experienced to use.
The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with
headset
and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of
Content
at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and
I
did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of
the
Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page,
and
the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
Regards
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to
put
on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are sighted that need the help.
I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through
a
great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer stuff that is simple.
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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You mean these persons suggested to remove the catches?
Rupert On May 28, 2015 11:58 AM, "Ilario Valdelli" valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry if I continue this discussion of January but it may be interesting to share my experience had yesterday because I attended to a presentation of a young programmer suffering from low vision and color-blind and usual participant in http://globalaccessibilityawarenessday.org/gaad.html.
It has been interesting because we experienced how is the life of a person studying and working in computer science but almost blind and we had the opportunity to be in his shoes.
The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio almost unintelligible for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for that including mobile OS.
The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio that everyone of us is experienced to use.
The third lesson is that a lot of them in general hears music with headset and have the speech synthesis always on, if there is a third vocal synthesis for them is more a problem than an advantage.
The fourth lesson learned is that Wikipedia is for them a well done web site because the content is structured. It means that the Table of Content at the start (so neglected by some graphical reasons) is fundamental for them because they can easily jump in the section they need.
No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
What can be improved, in my opinion it's only the "semantic" aspect of the Wikipedia, so pushing more the attention on the structure of the page, and the awareness that images are not useful for them. We must be aware that some tools used in Wikipedia, like Captcha, are a real obstacle for blind people, like stairs for people with wheelchairs.
Regards
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to
put
on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are sighted that need the help.
I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer stuff that is simple.
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
[...] The first lesson learned is that blind (or almost blind) people use always a software of speech synthesis with a speed that makes the audio almost unintelligible for not experienced people. The operating system provides several tools for that including mobile OS.
The second lesson is that this software of speech synthesis is crucial for them and they would set and control it. So forget the normal speed of audio that everyone of us is experienced to use.
I asked if anyone could point me to examples of "how fast do screenreaders actually read", a few months ago.[1] The best examples I could find at the time, are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izrC4R7SsH4#t=1561s and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92pM6hJG6Wo
Searching a few days ago, I learned that the average speed that experienced users generally use is 250-400 wpm, and that the default settings are around 180wpm. (Note: Users seem to typically talk about the speed they use in terms of x% of maximum, rather than wpm, e.g. "I've got 63% with rate boost, and rising. I used to think 75% with JAWS was fast, but not anymore. I'm just turning it 1% faster every couple days, and I'm doing it because I can." [2])
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_per_minute#Speech_and_listening says English language audio books are generally at 140-160 wpm.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/A... [2] http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=10649
No one knew that I am from a Wikimedia chapter except the organizers and I
did several questions about Wikipedia because (I did not know it) it was presented as "good" example of website for speech synthesis.
I believe this is partially through the long-term efforts of: our developers who have an understanding of accessibility issues, and our few blind editors and many sight-impaired editors who give regular feedback and bugreports.[3] Immense kudos to all of them.
[3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/accessibility/
(Sidenote: I compiled a list of all the related pages I could find, at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Accessibility_and_usability_cleanup Anyone's additions to that listing, or notes/improvements/merge-efforts at the linked pages over the longterm, would be greatly appreciated. :)
Quiddity
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