This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc ---------- From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
_______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Who is us? -Dan On Nov 22, 2007, at 2:23 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
The Foundation, Wikipedia or any of the other Projects,
Marc
on 11/22/07 2:50 PM, Dan Rosenthal at swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Who is us? -Dan On Nov 22, 2007, at 2:23 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106...
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
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____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
It's also apparently criminal statute, making it even less the foundation's business.
Highly unlikely it would ever come into play IMHO. On Nov 22, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Birgitte SB wrote:
I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106...
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Thanks, Brigitte, I didn't know. I'd also be curious as to how the law defines stalking and harassment.
Marc
on 11/22/07 2:57 PM, Birgitte SB at birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106... 2964_3161_498_0_31904_1095_70994589&inc=&Search=&YY=11233&y5beta=yes&y5beta=ye s&order=down&sort=date&pos=0
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
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Depends on the jurisdiction.
-Dan
On Nov 22, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
Thanks, Brigitte, I didn't know. I'd also be curious as to how the law defines stalking and harassment.
Marc
on 11/22/07 2:57 PM, Birgitte SB at birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106... 2964_3161_498_0_31904_1095_70994589 &inc=&Search=&YY=11233&y5beta=yes&y5beta=ye s&order=down&sort=date&pos=0
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Dan,
In you experience, how do some of the definitions go? Isn't, particularly, harassment a subjective thing?
Marc
on 11/22/07 5:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal at swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Depends on the jurisdiction.
-Dan
On Nov 22, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
Thanks, Brigitte, I didn't know. I'd also be curious as to how the law defines stalking and harassment.
Marc
on 11/22/07 2:57 PM, Birgitte SB at birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106... _3 2964_3161_498_0_31904_1095_70994589 &inc=&Search=&YY=11233&y5beta=yes&y5beta=ye s&order=down&sort=date&pos=0
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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I couldn't answer more than conjecture here, since I haven't taken criminal law courses yet, (next semester though!) If you're really interested, I can send a brief email, or put you through to someone who could answer better than I.
There was once a federal cyberstalking bill something like 10 years ago, but I don't think it ever made it out of committee.
Quickly via google, I see in Florida: http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mo...
"H479 passed; approved by Governor Jeb Bush on 5/21/03; effective 10/01/2003 Relating to the offense of stalking
Offense of Stalking; defines term "cyberstalk" to mean communication by means of electronic mail or electronic communication which causes substantial emotional distress & does not serve legitimate purpose; includes within offenses of stalking & aggravated stalking willful, malicious, & repeated cyberstalking of another person; provides penalties, etc. Amends 784.048; reenacts 775.084(1)(d), 790.065(2)(c), 921.0022(3)(f),(g), 960.001(1)(b). "
Oh, and I remember a couple years ago New York was trying to pass a cyberstalking and harassment law that was REALLY draconian, but once again I don't know whatever happened to it.
Also, wasn't there a more recent (i.e. second term bush) attempt to get a federal cyberstalking bill pushed through? Something about an amendment or a rider to an anti-violence against women act?
-Dan
On Nov 22, 2007, at 5:48 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
Dan,
In you experience, how do some of the definitions go? Isn't, particularly, harassment a subjective thing?
Marc
on 11/22/07 5:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal at swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Depends on the jurisdiction.
-Dan
On Nov 22, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
Thanks, Brigitte, I didn't know. I'd also be curious as to how the law defines stalking and harassment.
Marc
on 11/22/07 2:57 PM, Birgitte SB at birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106... _3 2964_3161_498_0_31904_1095_70994589 &inc=&Search=&YY=11233&y5beta=yes&y5beta=ye s&order=down&sort=date&pos=0
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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on 11/22/07 6:07 PM, Dan Rosenthal at swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
I couldn't answer more than conjecture here, since I haven't taken criminal law courses yet, (next semester though!)
Good luck to you. Students can be some of the best sources for brainstorming; their minds are focused on the subject, but haven't come to any conclusions yet.
If you're really interested
I'm very interested. In my work, I try to understand, and help, both the harassers and the harassed.
I can send a brief email
Please do.
or put you through to someone who could answer better than I.
Please do this also. (And, not "better", just "differently" ;-) ).
There was once a federal cyberstalking bill something like 10 years ago, but I don't think it ever made it out of committee.
Quickly via google, I see in Florida: http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mo... lInfo&Billnum=0479&Year=2003
"H479 passed; approved by Governor Jeb Bush on 5/21/03; effective 10/01/2003 Relating to the offense of stalking
Offense of Stalking; defines term "cyberstalk" to mean communication by means of electronic mail or electronic communication which causes substantial emotional distress & does not serve legitimate purpose; includes within offenses of stalking & aggravated stalking willful, malicious, & repeated cyberstalking of another person; provides penalties, etc. Amends 784.048; reenacts 775.084(1)(d), 790.065(2)(c), 921.0022(3)(f),(g), 960.001(1)(b). "
Oh, and I remember a couple years ago New York was trying to pass a cyberstalking and harassment law that was REALLY draconian, but once again I don't know whatever happened to it.
Also, wasn't there a more recent (i.e. second term bush) attempt to get a federal cyberstalking bill pushed through? Something about an amendment or a rider to an anti-violence against women act?
Thank you for all of this, Dan.
Marc
On Nov 22, 2007, at 5:48 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
Dan,
In you experience, how do some of the definitions go? Isn't, particularly, harassment a subjective thing?
Marc
on 11/22/07 5:35 PM, Dan Rosenthal at swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Depends on the jurisdiction.
-Dan
On Nov 22, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
Thanks, Brigitte, I didn't know. I'd also be curious as to how the law defines stalking and harassment.
Marc
on 11/22/07 2:57 PM, Birgitte SB at birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I happen to live near this town and do know the details [1].
I can't see how this could involve WMF. The idea is to make it possible to prosecute individuals who intentionally harass others online. It has nothing to do with the means of harassment. The only way I see WMF being affected is if the person charged with harassment is a checkuser or employee or something.
BirgitteSB
[1] http://us.f303.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Foundation%2dl&Mid=2863_106... 78 _3 2964_3161_498_0_31904_1095_70994589 &inc=&Search=&YY=11233&y5beta=yes&y5beta=ye s&order=down&sort=date&pos=0
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
This copy was meant for this List.
Marc
From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:20:08 -0500 To: WikiEN List wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Foundation List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] A Crime in Missouri
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
Just curious.
Marc Riddell
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Marc Riddell wrote:
This is a question for you legal eagles out there:
A town in Missouri (USA) has made on-line stalking and harassment a crime. I don't know much of the details, I just got it from CNN. But my question is, if the person charged an/or convicted of this crime were doing this in Wikipedia, or one of the other Projects, would the case involve us.
The first question that comes to my mind about this is one of jurisdiction. Your use of the word "town" suggests that we are not even talking about one of the major cities in Missouri. Small towns tend to have their rights to legislate defined by state law, and generally what they say cannot have have much effect beyond town limits. For a town to pursue a case of international cyberstalking could break the town's budget. Extradition for breach of a town's by-laws is an unlikely eventuality.
Ec
On Nov 23, 2007 9:56 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
The first question that comes to my mind about this is one of jurisdiction. Your use of the word "town" suggests that we are not even talking about one of the major cities in Missouri. Small towns tend to have their rights to legislate defined by state law, and generally what they say cannot have have much effect beyond town limits. For a town to pursue a case of international cyberstalking could break the town's budget. Extradition for breach of a town's by-laws is an unlikely eventuality.
Indeed. It's likely that such a rule was instituted after an issue between two of the place's residents, and is intended to prevent future such. Not anything long-distance.
-Matt
on 11/23/07 1:00 PM, Matthew Brown at morven@gmail.com wrote:
On Nov 23, 2007 9:56 AM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
The first question that comes to my mind about this is one of jurisdiction. Your use of the word "town" suggests that we are not even talking about one of the major cities in Missouri. Small towns tend to have their rights to legislate defined by state law, and generally what they say cannot have have much effect beyond town limits. For a town to pursue a case of international cyberstalking could break the town's budget. Extradition for breach of a town's by-laws is an unlikely eventuality.
Indeed. It's likely that such a rule was instituted after an issue between two of the place's residents, and is intended to prevent future such. Not anything long-distance.
Actually, Matt it was a problem between two families. However, the case was made more horrific because it involved the suicide hanging of a young girl who was interacting with, what turned out to be, a harassing hoax on MySpace. The perpetrator of the hoax turned out to a neighbor of hers. However, the local and state law enforcement can't find any laws that were broken. The perpetrator's response to the girl's family: "Get over it!".
I am at a loss for words.
Marc
On Nov 23, 2007 10:27 AM, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
Actually, Matt it was a problem between two families. However, the case was made more horrific because it involved the suicide hanging of a young girl who was interacting with, what turned out to be, a harassing hoax on MySpace. The perpetrator of the hoax turned out to a neighbor of hers. However, the local and state law enforcement can't find any laws that were broken. The perpetrator's response to the girl's family: "Get over it!".
I am at a loss for words.
Ah - I heard of that one - just didn't connect that and this.
Likewise.
-Matt
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