The discussion about a budget line item being appropriate in one context
and not in the next has been very interesting to me. And especially in
this case as it involves the provision of food, which is one of the most
deeply held cultural norms in many communities.
Frugality is certainly a consideration for the WMF. I can say with my
staff hat on that while we do get generous grants from foundations to
help support your amazing work, everyone here also thinks about the $5
that was donated by a student and feels a responsibility to that student.
However the word and concept of "frugality" differs significantly across
cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people
to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only
exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to
encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization,
it seems it would be very important not to insult people.
In many cultures I've worked in, if you didn't bring cigarettes, you
couldn't get a goat to listen to you. These may seem to be extreme
cases, but I'm thinking about WMF and the Wikimedia movement as truly
global. So I don't think we should dismiss this concept just because
currently we aren't working with any people who require cigarettes
before thinking about editing a Wikipedia.
I have no idea what the cultural norms for providing food at initial
meetings are in Portugal or many other places. I just add my crumb to
the discussion as a reminder that if we are wearing limited cultural
lenses when we create policy, it will forever limit us to working within
communities who are interested and able to live within those restrictions.
Jennifer Riggs
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
2. Re: Use of moderation (Austin Hair)
3. Re: Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? (Mike.lifeguard)
4. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Pharos)
5. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
6. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
7. Re: Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? (David Gerard)
8. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Chad)
9. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
10. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Gerard Meijssen)
11. Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:41:07 +0100
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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2009/9/10 Sue Gardner <sgardner(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
Hi Thomas!
Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26
proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find
it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop.
The proposals are up, but not the details of which were accepted and
which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when
considering what to request funding for in future.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:06:20 -0500
From: Austin Hair <adhair(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Use of moderation
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<e2a50e360909101106m6cc6a0eao51f41424f86c20db(a)mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Henning Schlottmann
<h.schlottmann(a)gmx.net> wrote:
Austin Hair wrote:
My ideal, personally, is something more like
nntp--and while I'm
perfectly happy to turn over the list to some other technology, I
don't know that this is the magic solution, and I agree with Tim that
it risks killing what good we do have with the existing methods.
I'm reading
and posting to the list using nntp. foundation-l is
distributed by
gmane.org as the (pseudo) newsgroup
news:gemane.org.wikimedia.foundation on the server
news.gmane.org along
with all the other Wikimedia mailing lists and it is by far the most
comfortable way to read the list.
Yes, but as gmane is simply a mail -> news gateway, the fundamental
operation of the list remains the same. The content management issues
aren't affected.
Austin
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:18:50 -0300
From: "Mike.lifeguard" <mike.lifeguard(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Do we have a complete set of WMF projects?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <4AA9511A.2090902(a)gmail.com>
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Brion Vibber wrote:
IMO we need to do that for the projects we
already have before we take
on new obligations!
We still have very poor software support for:...
Thanks Brion, it is good to know that the tech team is aware of these
issues and will be expending energy to improve how the software supports
the non-Wikipedia projects. I'm looking forward in particular to seeing
how the grant money will be spent for improving Commons' software, and
what ideas may come about for giving Wikibooks some in-software structure.
- -Mike
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:27:07 -0400
From: Pharos <pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2009/9/10 Sue Gardner
<sgardner(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
Hi Thomas!
Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26
proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find
it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop.
The proposals
are up, but not the details of which were accepted and
which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when
considering what to request funding for in future.
There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guid…
Since 26 were accepted in total, I guess this list in not quite
complete yet; but still it makes for very useful reading.
Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)
Wikimedia NYC-personal view
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:40:32 +0100
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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2009/9/10 Pharos <pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com>om>:
Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't
suggest it would contain such info.
Since 26 were accepted in total, I guess this
list in not quite
complete yet; but still it makes for very useful reading.
They may still be waiting to hear back from the other chapters.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:53:49 +0100
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:
2009/9/10 Pharos
<pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com>om>:
Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't
suggest it would contain such info.
I must say, I am amazed that this was approved:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up
WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all
meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free.
Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently
ridiculous.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:00:16 +0100
From: David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Do we have a complete set of WMF projects?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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2009/9/10 Brion Vibber <brion(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:
IMO we need to do that for the projects we
already have before we take
on new obligations!
Oh yesss.
We still have very poor software support for:
* Commons -- We need a sane upload and post-upload workflow (eg review
and deletion), and a clean system for handling structured metadata
(descriptions, authorship, licence info).
Some of this is being worked on now with Michael Dale's video & media
work, and the Ford Foundation grant will let us put more resources into
the workflow & metadata side, so this is the one I worry the least about. :)
Categories as tags with arbitrary Boolean queries? Huh? Huh? Huh?
- d.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:02:22 -0400
From: Chad <innocentkiller(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:
>> 2009/9/10 Pharos <pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com>om>:
>>> There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
>>>
>>>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guid…
>> Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't
>> suggest it would contain such info.
> I must say, I am amazed that this was approved:
>
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up
>
> WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all
> meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free.
> Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently
> ridiculous.
>
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I hadn't read that either. Ridiculous, I agree. I doubt people are donating
to the WMF for them to send the money to the Portuguese chapter for
their lunches.
The only part of that budget that makes sense to me is the legal fees, and
they're certainly not a back-breaking amount either.
-Chad
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:04:40 +0100
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
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2009/9/10 Chad <innocentkiller(a)gmail.com>om>:
I hadn't read that either. Ridiculous, I
agree. I doubt people are donating
to the WMF for them to send the money to the Portuguese chapter for
their lunches.
The only part of that budget that makes sense to me is the legal fees, and
they're certainly not a back-breaking amount either.
I have no objection, in principle, to travel and admin costs - WMUK
paid for them out of our first membership fees. We didn't travel that
much, though - I think there was one face-to-face meeting to actually
sign things, everything else was done online.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:12:22 +0200
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
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Hoi,
I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please
remember that there are different cultures where things are done in
different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that
you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local
environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ...
Thanks,
GerardM
2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
> 2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>:
>> 2009/9/10 Pharos <pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com>om>:
>>> There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
>>>
>>>
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guid…
>> Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't
>> suggest it would contain such info.
> I must say, I am amazed that this was approved:
>
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up
>
> WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all
> meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free.
> Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently
> ridiculous.
>
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:21:07 +0100
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
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2009/9/10 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:
Hoi,
I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please
remember that there are different cultures where things are done in
different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that
you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local
environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ...
Nonsense. If British Wikimedians can afford their own food, so can
Portuguese Wikimedians. They can bring a packed lunch from home if
they want - they would be eating anyway.
------------------------------
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