The discussion about a budget line item being appropriate in one context and not in the next has been very interesting to me. And especially in this case as it involves the provision of food, which is one of the most deeply held cultural norms in many communities.
Frugality is certainly a consideration for the WMF. I can say with my staff hat on that while we do get generous grants from foundations to help support your amazing work, everyone here also thinks about the $5 that was donated by a student and feels a responsibility to that student.
However the word and concept of "frugality" differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people.
In many cultures I've worked in, if you didn't bring cigarettes, you couldn't get a goat to listen to you. These may seem to be extreme cases, but I'm thinking about WMF and the Wikimedia movement as truly global. So I don't think we should dismiss this concept just because currently we aren't working with any people who require cigarettes before thinking about editing a Wikipedia.
I have no idea what the cultural norms for providing food at initial meetings are in Portugal or many other places. I just add my crumb to the discussion as a reminder that if we are wearing limited cultural lenses when we create policy, it will forever limit us to working within communities who are interested and able to live within those restrictions.
Jennifer Riggs
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
- Re: Use of moderation (Austin Hair)
- Re: Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? (Mike.lifeguard)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Pharos)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
- Re: Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? (David Gerard)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Chad)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Gerard Meijssen)
- Re: Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 (Thomas Dalton)
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:41:07 +0100 From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: a4359dff0909101041q3d6d869foe02cb48c012cbcd7@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/9/10 Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org:
Hi Thomas!
Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26 proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop.
The proposals are up, but not the details of which were accepted and which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when considering what to request funding for in future.
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:06:20 -0500 From: Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Use of moderation To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: e2a50e360909101106m6cc6a0eao51f41424f86c20db@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Henning Schlottmann h.schlottmann@gmx.net wrote:
Austin Hair wrote:
My ideal, personally, is something more like nntp--and while I'm perfectly happy to turn over the list to some other technology, I don't know that this is the magic solution, and I agree with Tim that it risks killing what good we do have with the existing methods.
I'm reading and posting to the list using nntp. foundation-l is distributed by gmane.org as the (pseudo) newsgroup news:gemane.org.wikimedia.foundation on the server news.gmane.org along with all the other Wikimedia mailing lists and it is by far the most comfortable way to read the list.
Yes, but as gmane is simply a mail -> news gateway, the fundamental operation of the list remains the same. The content management issues aren't affected.
Austin
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:18:50 -0300 From: "Mike.lifeguard" mike.lifeguard@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 4AA9511A.2090902@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Brion Vibber wrote:
IMO we need to do that for the projects we already have before we take on new obligations!
We still have very poor software support for:...
Thanks Brion, it is good to know that the tech team is aware of these issues and will be expending energy to improve how the software supports the non-Wikipedia projects. I'm looking forward in particular to seeing how the grant money will be spent for improving Commons' software, and what ideas may come about for giving Wikibooks some in-software structure.
- -Mike
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Message: 4 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:27:07 -0400 From: Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: ddc4b4860909101227s1701f247ifc8991c82eb939dc@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2009/9/10 Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org:
Hi Thomas!
Sorry to top-post, and to be late replying. I believe that all 26 proposals are up now on the meta page. Let me know if you can't find it, and I can post the link tonight when I'm back on my laptop.
The proposals are up, but not the details of which were accepted and which weren't. It would be useful to have that information when considering what to request funding for in future.
There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guida...
Since 26 were accepted in total, I guess this list in not quite complete yet; but still it makes for very useful reading.
Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos) Wikimedia NYC-personal view
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Message: 5 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:40:32 +0100 From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: a4359dff0909101240w76c3cbf8h152859ce4ee7348e@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guida...
Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info.
Since 26 were accepted in total, I guess this list in not quite complete yet; but still it makes for very useful reading.
They may still be waiting to hear back from the other chapters.
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:53:49 +0100 From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: a4359dff0909101253w60b72858x4e19ed4ba35b4a60@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guida...
Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info.
I must say, I am amazed that this was approved:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up
WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous.
Message: 7 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:00:16 +0100 From: David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Do we have a complete set of WMF projects? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: fbad4e140909101300i5f3a3289vdbd8acded92d8a26@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/9/10 Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org:
IMO we need to do that for the projects we already have before we take on new obligations!
Oh yesss.
We still have very poor software support for:
- Commons -- We need a sane upload and post-upload workflow (eg review
and deletion), and a clean system for handling structured metadata (descriptions, authorship, licence info). Some of this is being worked on now with Michael Dale's video & media work, and the Ford Foundation grant will let us put more resources into the workflow & metadata side, so this is the one I worry the least about. :)
Categories as tags with arbitrary Boolean queries? Huh? Huh? Huh?
- d.
Message: 8 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:02:22 -0400 From: Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 5924f50a0909101302tb9ec3ffv51050b18ca4b6a0b@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guida...
Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info.
I must say, I am amazed that this was approved:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up
WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous.
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I hadn't read that either. Ridiculous, I agree. I doubt people are donating to the WMF for them to send the money to the Portuguese chapter for their lunches.
The only part of that budget that makes sense to me is the legal fees, and they're certainly not a back-breaking amount either.
-Chad
Message: 9 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:04:40 +0100 From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: a4359dff0909101304s242951b6vf4b45625a2e28d4@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/9/10 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com:
I hadn't read that either. Ridiculous, I agree. I doubt people are donating to the WMF for them to send the money to the Portuguese chapter for their lunches.
The only part of that budget that makes sense to me is the legal fees, and they're certainly not a back-breaking amount either.
I have no objection, in principle, to travel and admin costs - WMUK paid for them out of our first membership fees. We didn't travel that much, though - I think there was one face-to-face meeting to actually sign things, everything else was done online.
Message: 10 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:12:22 +0200 From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 41a006820909101312m59574349nef27e6bc3c6cbe0e@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hoi, I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please remember that there are different cultures where things are done in different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ... Thanks, GerardM
2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
2009/9/10 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/9/10 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
There are 21 accepted proposals listed on this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/Reporting_Guida...
Ah, well found! I didn't think to check that page - the title doesn't suggest it would contain such info.
I must say, I am amazed that this was approved:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/WMF_grants/WM_PT/Start-up
WMUK managed to get set up without paying for any meals and all meetings have taken place in pubs or rooms we've got hold of for free. Paying nearly $3,500 for that out of charitable donations is patently ridiculous.
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Message: 11 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:21:07 +0100 From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Report to the Board of Trustees June 2009 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: a4359dff0909101321i684d792cv888608a70a5b2205@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
2009/9/10 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I think it is not reasonable to judge others by how you do things. Please remember that there are different cultures where things are done in different ways. I am sure there are things in the history of the WMUK that you do not wish onto others.. Everyone has to deal with the local environment. This is one reason why we have different chapters ...
Nonsense. If British Wikimedians can afford their own food, so can Portuguese Wikimedians. They can bring a packed lunch from home if they want - they would be eating anyway.
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End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 66, Issue 38
2009/9/11 Jennifer Riggs jriggs@wikimedia.org:
However the word and concept of "frugality" differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people.
If we were talking about meetings with people from outside the Wikimedia movement, I would agree with you, but I really can't see how it can be insulting not to provide food at a meeting of Wikimedians when the people attending the meeting and the people organising the meeting are exactly the same people. If people are only willing to set up a chapter if the WMF buys them lunch once a month, I don't want those people setting up a chapter.
Why should all Wikimedians have the same culture and ideas and way of thinking as you? Why should Wikimedians who have a culture be excluded from setting up a chapter?
Besides that I think you're paraphrasing way too much. The grant request only suggested that this kind of costs are just costs that have to be made to work efficiently. The chapter asked the Foundation to pay for it the first year, so that they could focus on useful stuff. I hope they will be able to generate these and other funds themselves from next year onwards.
Lodewijk
2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
2009/9/11 Jennifer Riggs jriggs@wikimedia.org:
However the word and concept of "frugality" differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people.
If we were talking about meetings with people from outside the Wikimedia movement, I would agree with you, but I really can't see how it can be insulting not to provide food at a meeting of Wikimedians when the people attending the meeting and the people organising the meeting are exactly the same people. If people are only willing to set up a chapter if the WMF buys them lunch once a month, I don't want those people setting up a chapter.
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2009/9/11 effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com:
Why should all Wikimedians have the same culture and ideas and way of thinking as you? Why should Wikimedians who have a culture be excluded from setting up a chapter?
We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food.
On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food.
This, in fact, is one of the great fallacies of international organizations. Failure to notice and work within the context of cultural norms condemns an organization very quickly. In Italy, I was far more likely to take business partners to long elaborate meals than I would be in California. Please, can we at least acknowledge that it's not as simplistic as you present it here?
Philippe
2009/9/11 Philippe Beaudette pbeaudette@wikimedia.org:
On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food.
This, in fact, is one of the great fallacies of international organizations. Failure to notice and work within the context of cultural norms condemns an organization very quickly. In Italy, I was far more likely to take business partners to long elaborate meals than I would be in California. Please, can we at least acknowledge that it's not as simplistic as you present it here?
It is that simple. If we were talking about having lunch with people outside the Wikimedia movement, it would be different because we have to comply with what they expect. We can expect people within the Wikimedia movement to change their expectations to fit what is best for the movement. It is not best for the movement to be spending money of their lunch when they are perfectly capable of getting their own lunch (as evidenced by the fact that they would be eating if they didn't go to the meeting). Either buying Wikimedian's lunch is a good use of money, or it isn't, culture doesn't factor into it.
Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they must share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true because you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it. thanks, GerardM
2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
2009/9/11 Philippe Beaudette pbeaudette@wikimedia.org:
On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
We're not talking about culture, we are talking about lunch. They are human beings, the same as we are, they have the same needs when it comes to food.
This, in fact, is one of the great fallacies of international organizations. Failure to notice and work within the context of cultural norms condemns an organization very quickly. In Italy, I was far more likely to take business partners to long elaborate meals than I would be in California. Please, can we at least acknowledge that it's not as simplistic as you present it here?
It is that simple. If we were talking about having lunch with people outside the Wikimedia movement, it would be different because we have to comply with what they expect. We can expect people within the Wikimedia movement to change their expectations to fit what is best for the movement. It is not best for the movement to be spending money of their lunch when they are perfectly capable of getting their own lunch (as evidenced by the fact that they would be eating if they didn't go to the meeting). Either buying Wikimedian's lunch is a good use of money, or it isn't, culture doesn't factor into it.
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2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they must share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true because you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it.
If they value themselves over our goals, they are entitled to those values, but I want nothing to do with them.
2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they must share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true because you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it.
If they value themselves over our goals, they are entitled to those values, but I want nothing to do with them.
PS Even if you are right, surely the relevant values are those of the donors, not the people spending the money? If they were spending money they had fundraised it would be a different matter, since the donors would be from the same culture, but that isn't the case.
Hoi, Relevant is what our aim is. Our aim is to bring the total sum of knowledge to everyone. Now, that means that we have to be Portuguese in Portugal, Dutch in the Netherlands and I leave you to be British in Britain. In the end that is what we ask people to contribute to. Thanks, GerardM
2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You are doing it again. You insist that for them being Wikimedians they
must
share the same values the same culture as you do... It must be true
because
you insist on it. Somehow I do not buy it.
If they value themselves over our goals, they are entitled to those values, but I want nothing to do with them.
PS Even if you are right, surely the relevant values are those of the donors, not the people spending the money? If they were spending money they had fundraised it would be a different matter, since the donors would be from the same culture, but that isn't the case.
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2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Relevant is what our aim is. Our aim is to bring the total sum of knowledge to everyone. Now, that means that we have to be Portuguese in Portugal, Dutch in the Netherlands and I leave you to be British in Britain. In the end that is what we ask people to contribute to.
You can't waste other people's money and then say "That's our culture" (and I note, nobody from Portugal seems to be making that argument). If you accept that, you have to accept anything.
the main question should be whether it is worth it in that case. I.e., will it improve the chances of the chapter becoming successful? And I believe you are just as I am not able to make that estimate without at least some understanding of Portuguese culture.
Lodewijk
2009/9/11 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
2009/9/11 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Relevant is what our aim is. Our aim is to bring the total sum of
knowledge
to everyone. Now, that means that we have to be Portuguese in Portugal, Dutch in the Netherlands and I leave you to be British in Britain. In the end that is what we ask people to contribute to.
You can't waste other people's money and then say "That's our culture" (and I note, nobody from Portugal seems to be making that argument). If you accept that, you have to accept anything.
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2009/9/11 effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com:
the main question should be whether it is worth it in that case. I.e., will it improve the chances of the chapter becoming successful? And I believe you are just as I am not able to make that estimate without at least some understanding of Portuguese culture.
I would change "improve" to "significantly improve" (relative to the cost), but otherwise I agree, that is the question. In the absence of evidence to the contrary (which nobody has even attempted to provide), I think the default should be to assume there is no significant difference between Portugal and other western European countries.
May I respectfully suggest that further discussion on this thread be taken offlist until new arguments come to light which have not already been posted?
-- brion
Fair enough, Brion :-) -- I'm just going to amplify and elaborate a little on Jennifer's original mail. I think some of this is on the meta page, but I'll say it here anyway.
The purpose of the chapters grant process is to make money available to people to get good work done. The basic assumption underpinning it is that those people know best what they need to make progress towards our shared goals. They know their culture best, they know their situation best, and they know best what will help them get stuff done.
Because of that, the intent of the Wikimedia Foundation is to provide a simple lightweight process for grants approval. Many chapters have never applied for a grant in any context: they are learning how to do it, and we want to support that learning. We have an obligation to apply some scrutiny to their requests (and we do), but we also acknowledge that we at the Foundation may or may not have any particular expertise in Portugese culture, or German culture, or Indian. We don't pretend to be the experts in their specific context.
To that end, we're comfortable applying some scrutiny and finetuning, which Jennifer has done --- but we do also want to trust them, and to assume good faith. I am confident that the Portugese grant recipients, like the other recipients, will put the money to good use. They're required to report on what they did with it, and we expect that if the money turns out to be too much, or the need turns out to be somewhat different than planned, they will tell us so, and we will work out something sensible that is not wasteful.
Probably some mistakes will be made, and we will learn from that. That will be unavoidable, and is also a desirable part of the process. Part of the purpose is to learn -- all of us, together. And that is also why the process is public: so people other than the Foundation and the grant recipients, can comment and influence and share and learn.
On the whole, I am confident the money will be well-used, and will achieve its goal: supporting people in advancing our shared mission, in ways that make sense in their context.
Thanks, Sue
On 11/09/2009, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
May I respectfully suggest that further discussion on this thread be taken offlist until new arguments come to light which have not already been posted?
-- brion
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2009/9/12 Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org:
Fair enough, Brion :-) -- I'm just going to amplify and elaborate a little on Jennifer's original mail. I think some of this is on the meta page, but I'll say it here anyway.
The purpose of the chapters grant process is to make money available to people to get good work done. The basic assumption underpinning it is that those people know best what they need to make progress towards our shared goals. They know their culture best, they know their situation best, and they know best what will help them get stuff done.
While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
Thomas Dalton wrote:
While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
I think this is very rude. Why do you assume that people wanting to create a Wikimedia chapter are incompetent? You need to have a bit more trust for people you have never met and you don't know.
Regards,
Yann
2009/9/12 Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net:
Thomas Dalton wrote:
While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
I think this is very rude. Why do you assume that people wanting to create a Wikimedia chapter are incompetent? You need to have a bit more trust for people you have never met and you don't know.
Why would I assume that someone knows how to do something they have never done before? Someone from the Portuguese chapter has already admitted they have very little experience. Note, I don't use the word "incompetent" as an insult, I just use it to mean what it means - not having a particular relevant competence.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:01 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2009/9/12 Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net:
Thomas Dalton wrote:
While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
I think this is very rude. Why do you assume that people wanting to create a Wikimedia chapter are incompetent? You need to have a bit more trust for people you have never met and you don't know.
Why would I assume that someone knows how to do something they have never done before? Someone from the Portuguese chapter has already admitted they have very little experience. Note, I don't use the word "incompetent" as an insult, I just use it to mean what it means - not having a particular relevant competence.
I am also shocked by this very broad brush.
You are not just saying that they lack experience, or "competence" - you are saying that chapters are likely to misuse funds.
The people setting up a Wikimedia chapter are usually extremely dedicated, and they have set up a board of competent Wikimedians to collaborate on decision making. They may not have experience running a non-profit, however they are likely to be extremely socially responsible to their members who are, for the most part, people they work with closely on the Wikimedia projects.
If they are not responsible, the local memberships will dry up.
-- John Vandenberg
2009/9/13 John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com:
I am also shocked by this very broad brush.
You are not just saying that they lack experience, or "competence" - you are saying that chapters are likely to misuse funds.
You are putting words in my mouth. I haven't specified a probability that a randomly chosen chapter will misuse funds. I have said there is a significant chance they will make mistakes, which means the WMF should take significant care when deciding what to do with WMF funds. They shouldn't have blind faith in chapters to know what they are doing.
Perhaps this is one of those cultural things - I am British and here charities are considered to have a moral and legal duty to take direct responsibility for spending money people give them in an appropriate way. Giving money to another charity and trusting them to make good decisions about what to spend it on would, in fact, be illegal here.
I should clarify that I am complaining about the WMF's actions here, not those of the Portuguese Wikimedians (who both I and they have said, didn't know any better - there is nothing to suggest they acted in bad faith). It isn't just the Portuguese grant that I disagree with - there are things WMUK requested that I did not support and would not have granted had I been the WMF. For example, WMUK requests £1000 to buy a laptop, that is completely ridiculous, there is no way we need such a high-spec laptop for giving a few presentations. I would not have granted that money; the WMF did. (WMUK has now requested permission to reallocate that £1000 to buy a data projector and other peripherals, which is a far better idea, and I hope and expect the WMF will allow it.)
2009/9/12 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
I'm a bit worried about this sort of approach. Taken to extremes, we wouldn't let the local chapter organise itself at all, because clearly none of them would know how to do it until after they've had experience running it, etc etc etc.
People will make bad decisions, estimates, projections, guesses, conclusions sometimes; it happens. We spot them the second time around, once we've realised they're wrong, fix them, and move on.
2009/9/12 Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk:
2009/9/12 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
I'm a bit worried about this sort of approach. Taken to extremes, we wouldn't let the local chapter organise itself at all, because clearly none of them would know how to do it until after they've had experience running it, etc etc etc.
I think it makes perfect sense to help people the first time they do something.
People will make bad decisions, estimates, projections, guesses, conclusions sometimes; it happens. We spot them the second time around, once we've realised they're wrong, fix them, and move on.
By that time that harm may have already been done. If that harm is minimal, then it might be worth the risk, but I don't think risking $3,500 of WMF donor's money to be minimal.
Дана Saturday 12 September 2009 20:03:32 Thomas Dalton написа:
People will make bad decisions, estimates, projections, guesses, conclusions sometimes; it happens. We spot them the second time around, once we've realised they're wrong, fix them, and move on.
By that time that harm may have already been done. If that harm is minimal, then it might be worth the risk, but I don't think risking $3,500 of WMF donor's money to be minimal.
Have you tried putting that on paper? Let's assume that 50% chance of chapter becoming competent and 50% chance of chapter becoming incompetent. I don't think you would deny that a competent chapter could increase donations from Portugal for, say $1,000 per year. Hence, $3,500 is a good use of donor's money.
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually.
It's true that random dude in random country may not be an expert on incorporating a chapter-like organization (not a "charity," because that's not required, or even a "non-profit"), but neither is anyone employed by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., and neither is any member of the Chapters Committee. There are still 170+ potential Wikimedia chapters with zero persons experienced in doing the kind of thing we're doing. It's totally new ground, and to assume incompetence on anyone's part is simply bad faith.
Now, there is room for better coordination and more oversight. It would, for instance, be nice if there were more coordination between the WMF Inc. staff and the committee facilitating chapter development. I'd like to see more discussion on the process, but there's no need to presume idiocy on the part of people who know their culture and legal system better than you and I do.
Austin
2009/9/13 Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com:
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
While that is true, it is also important to remember that most people setting up a chapter have next to no experience of running a non-profit. They don't know what is and isn't appropriate to spend donations on, they don't necessarily know what needs to done and just because they know their culture in general doesn't mean they know how the charity sector works in their country. The Foundation could provide a lot of advice on those issues. While I don't doubt that the Portuguese Wikimedians are acting in good faith, trust requires two things - good faith and competence. They are almost certainly not competent since they haven't had an opportunity to develop that competence yet, so they should not be trusted to be making the right decisions.
Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually.
If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem.
It's true that random dude in random country may not be an expert on incorporating a chapter-like organization (not a "charity," because that's not required, or even a "non-profit"), but neither is anyone employed by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., and neither is any member of the Chapters Committee.
Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually.
If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem.
I think it's fairly clear that I dispute the factualness of your statement.
Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity.
I don't know when it was that you checked, because this has never been a requirement. In countries where there's some analog to what Americans and Brits would call a non-profit, that's generally the desired form, but different countries have different legal systems—WMF Inc., for instance, is not a "charity" in the American sense of the word—and we do now have chapters which are neither.
That's not even the point, however. WMF Inc. does not have experience running a non-profit in, say, Brunei. I couldn't tell you the exchange rate in Brunei, much less what it costs to organize an event there. It's preposterous to assume that we can step in and throw highly paid western consultants at a situation, with the poor, incompetent Bruneians bowing to our superior wisdom and experience.
Austin
2009/9/13 Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com:
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually.
If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem.
I think it's fairly clear that I dispute the factualness of your statement.
You take offence when people say something you deem to be mistaken? Or are you suggesting I knew what I said was untrue and said it to be intentionally malicious?
Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity.
I don't know when it was that you checked, because this has never been a requirement. In countries where there's some analog to what Americans and Brits would call a non-profit, that's generally the desired form, but different countries have different legal systems—WMF Inc., for instance, is not a "charity" in the American sense of the word—and we do now have chapters which are neither.
I've looked it up, and I stand corrected - non-profit status is on the "guideline" page, not the "requirements" page. I knew I had seen it there somewhere.
That's not even the point, however. WMF Inc. does not have experience running a non-profit in, say, Brunei. I couldn't tell you the exchange rate in Brunei, much less what it costs to organize an event there. It's preposterous to assume that we can step in and throw highly paid western consultants at a situation, with the poor, incompetent Bruneians bowing to our superior wisdom and experience.
If the WMF doesn't know what is appropriate and the local chapter people can be trusted to know what is appropriate (in some cases the local chapter may have the necessary experience and the WMF can defer to their expertise, but that isn't always the case), then the WMF needs to do the necessary research. They are responsible for what money that people have given them is spent on, so it falls to them to find out what spending is and isn't appropriate.
can someone kill this thread? Thanks.
2009/9/13 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
2009/9/13 Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com:
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com
wrote:
Wow, that's... pretty offensive, actually.
If you are offended by statements of fact, that is your problem.
I think it's fairly clear that I dispute the factualness of your
statement.
You take offence when people say something you deem to be mistaken? Or are you suggesting I knew what I said was untrue and said it to be intentionally malicious?
Last time I checked, being a non-profit (and a charity if possible) *was* a requirement to be a Wikimedia chapter. The WMF does have experience of running a charity.
I don't know when it was that you checked, because this has never been a requirement. In countries where there's some analog to what Americans and Brits would call a non-profit, that's generally the desired form, but different countries have different legal systems—WMF Inc., for instance, is not a "charity" in the American sense of the word—and we do now have chapters which are neither.
I've looked it up, and I stand corrected - non-profit status is on the "guideline" page, not the "requirements" page. I knew I had seen it there somewhere.
That's not even the point, however. WMF Inc. does not have experience running a non-profit in, say, Brunei. I couldn't tell you the exchange rate in Brunei, much less what it costs to organize an event there. It's preposterous to assume that we can step in and throw highly paid western consultants at a situation, with the poor, incompetent Bruneians bowing to our superior wisdom and experience.
If the WMF doesn't know what is appropriate and the local chapter people can be trusted to know what is appropriate (in some cases the local chapter may have the necessary experience and the WMF can defer to their expertise, but that isn't always the case), then the WMF needs to do the necessary research. They are responsible for what money that people have given them is spent on, so it falls to them to find out what spending is and isn't appropriate.
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2009/9/13 effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com:
can someone kill this thread? Thanks.
Why? Misuse of foundation funds is very much within the scope of this list.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
2009/9/13 effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com:
can someone kill this thread? Thanks.
Why? Misuse of foundation funds is very much within the scope of this list.
Yes, but misuse of this list is very much within the scope of killing the thread.
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Jennifer Riggsjriggs@wikimedia.org wrote:
The discussion about a budget line item being appropriate in one context and not in the next has been very interesting to me. And especially in this case as it involves the provision of food, which is one of the most deeply held cultural norms in many communities.
Frugality is certainly a consideration for the WMF. I can say with my staff hat on that while we do get generous grants from foundations to help support your amazing work, everyone here also thinks about the $5 that was donated by a student and feels a responsibility to that student.
However the word and concept of "frugality" differs significantly across cultures. In my experience with many non-Western cultures, asking people to bring lunch from home or spend their own money for it would not only exclude participation, it would insult people. If the purpose is to encourage participation and commitment to a newly forming organization, it seems it would be very important not to insult people.
In many cultures I've worked in, if you didn't bring cigarettes, you couldn't get a goat to listen to you. These may seem to be extreme cases, but I'm thinking about WMF and the Wikimedia movement as truly global. So I don't think we should dismiss this concept just because currently we aren't working with any people who require cigarettes before thinking about editing a Wikipedia.
I have no idea what the cultural norms for providing food at initial meetings are in Portugal or many other places. I just add my crumb to the discussion as a reminder that if we are wearing limited cultural lenses when we create policy, it will forever limit us to working within communities who are interested and able to live within those restrictions.
Jennifer Riggs
Thanks Jennifer for your comment. I hope that people go a little easy in their responses to this e-mail, so that we don't accidentally discourage Foundation staffers from replying to this list. I have some questions, Jennifer, if you don't mind:
* The idea of tailoring funding to cultural norms is valid, in theory, but I personally have a hard time understanding what major cultural distinctions separate Portugal from other European chapters in this regard. Does allowing for cultural norms in funding grants require that the grant-makers familiarize themselves with the relevant norms? (I was originally going to ask if you were aware of characteristics unique to Portugal on this, but you've written that you are not).
* I'm curious about the process of distributing funding like this in general, and what criteria for a pre-existing structure or evidence of community support you look for ahead of making grants - and in the same vein, what sort of follow up is planned to ensure funding is spent and appropriately. If I'm wrong please let me know, but is it accurate that the chapter is in its earliest stages, with no chapter agreement, no review or involvement from ChapCom, limited organizing activity on wiki and no legal structure for bearing responsibility for money?
* Was there a series of off-wiki exchanges with the Portuguese chapter folks about the best way to utilize funding, and whether face to face meetings were appropriate for an extended series of planning meetings?
* Will the reaction to this grant will influence future grants, whether similar requests and grants will be publicized in the future (and to what extent)? What type of engagement the Foundation would like with the community on the issue of community funding?
Hopefully this doesn't come across as entirely critical; I haven't seen other finalized grants, don't know anything about the behind-the-scenes communication, or even whether extenuating circumstances (such as all founding members in fact living in different cities) make the funding level more appropriate than it seems on face value.
Thanks,
Nathan
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