Walter van Kalken wrote:

Hello

...

Waerth did send a mail asking if Kennisnet would be willing to pay for access to statistical content. Kennisnet, the portal organisation it is, cannot fulfil such a request. There was however a discussion on how such data would be best hosted. Localisation and versioning were discussed. When you have statistical content, you want to know the date and the source of the content. アムステルダム, 암스테르담 and Амстердам have the same statistics it makes little sense to store this in many projects. Consequently the possibilities that Wikidata offer for this type of information and the possibilities that the Ultimate Wiktionary offer for localisation need to be considered. Kennisnet might consider helping with the creation of the infrastructure for such a project.

And in that same email I said that I would be utterly against such a nightmare scenario of hosting those data at one place. It is yet another project need to tend to while all problems with commons, a much less farreaching similar approach, haven't been settled yet. Also I am just being shown the reason that if I never get access to people of kennisnet my ideas basically get fucked by the messenger.

It is really reassuring that kennisnet actually answers a mail I send (NOT!) might this have something to do with Gerard telling them not to?

Walter/Waerth _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Sabine,

How can you ever only think about something like that? Please, before making such assumptions use your grey cells.

I am using them I have had to think a year and communicate with gerard for a year to come to this conclusion.

People who talk like you in public to miscredit others just are ... better not to say otherwise I'd reach the same level you have and I definitely won't.

Well I have the guts to do it in public and not behing his back. I am doing it where he can see it in front of his eyes.

If you have a problem with Gerard or someone else I'd kindly invite you to do this privately and not in public mailing lists.

I have discussed it privately for about 6 months, through IRC, Skype and mail and he simply never listens. Not to me nor to anyone else. In the beginning I thought I might be stupid or an idiot, untill I noticed many others having the same feelings. The difference is they say it around his back, I have been telling it to him in the open or privately with him. Now it has reached a boiling point as far as I am concerned and I am at a point that I will not accept the way Gerard works anymore.

Another thing I would kindly ask you is to reconsider the language you use - certain terms are not appropriate for public. You could have written "basically get not considered as they should" - not everyone is used to a certain "style".

Like everything I do I write the way I am. I have no reason to hide who I am, or how I think, or to hide my intentions. I have always been straight and what I say is what I think. I do not hide my thoughts behind politically correct phrasemongering.

I am upset, really upset.

So am I but we are upset both for different reasons.

Waerth/Walter

The breadth was amazing: from general school use to class and project-specific use to social integration issues. Among those, I'd say the most frequent uses where attempts to foster collaborative behavior among younger students, so it wasn't so much about wiki contents. Rather, wikis were used as a tool for developing social skills.

Lovely.

"Building blocks and sandcastles: predecessors to the wiki?"

SJ

Sabine Cretella wrote:

Did you ever hear about conditions in contracts? about written and oral agreements? do you know why normally agreements

..... skip .....

words considering the kind of language and espression you are used to use.

You have never really had to deal with gerard extensively in him representing your project. I am not the only one with these feelings. I am the only one currently opening about it.

Please just shut up now and if you have requests make them in a written mail and with a clean language.

Demands? this is plain xxxx (censored words) . All communications I had sofar with you Sabine are through mail so I do not see how that would change it is not as if I talked with you on IRC or something else.

Otherwise no-one will ever read your mails anymore I suppose.

That would only make the situation more difficult wouldn't it? My situation and feeling would be unanswered which would mean it wouldn't be solved, which would mean I would get more pissed off. These emails would have never been send in the first place if Gerard would have communicated, I have quite a couple of editors on nl: who feel the same, Gerard doesn't communicate. If I was the only one .... I would be a fool, but I am not.

I just had a glance at your last e-mail-opera - the only thing you are trying to do is to miscredit and not to figure out things - a behaviour that is not ammissible to me (and maybe also to others).

Not to figure out things? I have been trying to do that for months and if the subject in question is either not answering or talking around the subject in order to try and avoid having to give an answer it is becoming really difficult isn't it.

And don't make me go further - my mails can even be more kind than this one.

Be my guest.

Now fist of all I want

a) an excuse to all contributors of the wikimedia projects

I am sorry? You want me to publicly humiliate myself because you and Gerard share the same ideas and work together intimately?

an then it is considerable that

b) you send in a "clean and gentle" mail about what you think and want (and I mean this)

It was send, I do not like mangling my words, I say them straight as I think.

c) without any aggressive tone

My mails are never meant aggressively.

d) you go and learn what the word discussion means

I know what it means, part of it involves the other party actually answering your questions.

Otherwise: consider your mails not to be read anymore (there's a nice function in any e-mail softare - so called filters and a neat place for undesired mails: the trash-bin)

I could become sarcastic here.

I suppose I understood the why of such a behaviour - and this has nothing to do with the projects itself, but with ego.

Great psychological insight, any more descriptions of my character?

What I found out is that you are a stweard, right? (as you can see, I do my homework) and as such this behaviour is really something unbelievable and unforgivable.

Yes and you are on Italian wiktionary mainly. A steward is a technical function only. It is not a representative function. I am not abusing it in away, nor am I refusing to fullfill anyone's request. The function description of being a steward doesn't say anywhere about me having to be politically correct nor to have to forfeit my own opinion. If you do not want a person who says what he beliefs in and stands by it, than simply do not vote for me.

Best wishes,

Sabine Cretella

(and please note: I do not sign this mail with "Sabine" as usually - and I don't use "ciao" - this means this mail has a very definite meaning)

Well have a good day to

Walter/Waerth

Ola, cool down both of you.

I am quite calm now - working high voltage conversion faciliteis (don't know if the translation in EN is correct ... but I have to keep calm to do this kind of work)

We like and respect both of you, and Gerard as well.

I know that :-)

Now, Sabine. As long as a discussion occurs privately, you may not know there was ever private discussion. It is only when such discussions occur publicly that everyone suddenly discovers things (and complain things should be discussed privately first).

Fact is that these discussions have occured privately, then semi-privately on irc. Fact is that other people than Waerth have complained about Gerard being often a bit overbearing, but are not willing to say it aloud. Fact is it is not only about Kennisnet, but also about the Dutch association.

I know that as well - I read quite a lot, but really don't have time to answer publicly - I do this only when it comes to projects where I am involved and spent time in them

On the other hand, it is most unfortunately frequent that those being very very bold are also very very criticized by others... for being bold, for going to quickly etc... Some people are bold and quick, but often take no time to listen to others and act in a consensual way. Others are more hesitant, slow, more respectful, but listen more than they act, so do far less. We need all types. If only the first bold type, wikipedia would be a battlefield. If only the second type, few things would get done. So it might be good that we have Gerard being bold (and sometimes upsetting people) and Waerth being openly critical of Gerard actions.

The only things that really is important, is that all voices are heard in the end... and currently, as an observer of the past months, I fear it is not so clear that all voices were heard and all opinions taken into account.

Waerth is part of our community, just as is Gerard or you, or other dissenters. I do not think we should say to anyone part of the community to shut up. Maybe to talk differently, maybe to act differently, but not to shut up.

The thing I don't accept is first throw in a few lines accusing and then afterwards telling what it is about.

And in any cases, distress is obvious, I do not think we should dismiss it. And I say this not only because of Waerth email (as usual, very impetuous as Waerth always is), but also because of other voices I have heard (less impetuous, but critical as well).

I have unfortunately no idea what we could do at this point... :-( Maybe talking about it publicly if people have the willingness to do so ? (without fear)

See, the thing is, we have been talking about UW, tbx phrases etc. in Wiktionary for almost a year now - just some days ago I went back and had a look at "when UW" started in our minds, when we started to talk to people to share contents and to simplify things - it was the 31st of August 2004 - I also wrote in my blog about this.

I wrote quite a lot about UW just like Gerard does - what I know is that he asks many even one by one and even outside wiktionary and wikipedia about their opinion - where I told him "you will need to stop at a certain point" since nothing is perfect he said that things need to be as perfect as possible for a good startup and was writing mails and talking to I don't know how many people one by one - not only through the lists since mails sent to the list often don't seem to be read. It also happened to me more than just once.

A translator's community is involved with UW - these people don't have the time and are not willing to subscribe to further lists. Me being active in UW and for now mainly seen on the Italian wiktionary even if I often do things in the background nobody knows of (see the letter to the Pope etc. - btw. it seems as if the answere is there :-)) in mainly the Italian translator list's and in OmegaT and some other OpenSource projects I receive over 500 e-mails a day. So I often must choose and often I choose to talk to single people where I know they will give me feedback instead of writing to a list where people do not seem to be interested. That's all.

Consider this: after mails I wrote about Ultimate Wiktionary where I also mentioned with who I am co-operating people that now show interest don't even know who is in the project. It doesn't matter if I am mentioned or not, otherwise I would make more buzz about that on lists (really most Italian translators know that I am the one to talk to about that in Italian ... they read my mails and I receive their feedback :-)

When I tell Gerard that I would just go ahead instead of discussing points that lead to no-where he instead tells me that those people are important for him. He wants to talk to them as even after some apparently useless mails there could be an important point to consider and to make our work more perfect - all too often he is right. And then someone comes and tells things that are completely different even says that he makes things in a hidden way or influences an organisation on what to answer or not - this is simply not true since all the information about the idea of UW (at the beginning these writings are about wiktionary - the name UW came about later no) is there - it can be found on meta and in discussion lists, in beer parlours and additionally to that in many many single e-mails that cost hours and hours to write just to have "that one opinion".

I have been working with Gerard for almost a year on that now - and God knows how many hours we spent considering every single category that could be interested (and often we have very different opinions), asking them, finding out how and how not to do things. I am the interface mainly to one user group of UW - translators - Gerard cares about most of the others.

I would never be aggressive publicly - but what I read was simply too much - I am told that I never worked together with Gerard and so I could not know what kind of person he is - I did - nearly every day - and I know him as a person that knows very well what to do and in particular when to do it - he listens carefully to others and considers at the same time all the information he already has in mind - that's where decisions come out. Then he writes the articles, blogs, mails etc. where he presents all the information he gathered and combined - and these are the points where to start from. If we re-consider what already has been done only since someone did not show up at the beginning, we will never reach te goal. Ultimate Wiktionary is a dream for many of us - it has been dreamt thousands of times in linguist's and translator's lifes.

Kennisnet: they are among the most important partners for us - they are doing what all organisations should do - imagine all schools of the world contributing only one article in whatever project a day ... normally these contributions of pupils are then reviewed by their teachers, so they have a generally good quality. I myself used some articles of wikipedia in German lessons - they can be used - the difficulty is to choose the right ones. My two pupils that will be back in autumn will read many articles this year and study the terminology they hopefully will find on wiktionary. We need organisations like Kennisnet - they allow teachers to say: let's do similar things ... and this brings potential editors and of course many many users. These today very young users one day are grown up - and they will take our dream pojects to success.

See we are at a turning point - and as always when there's a turning point at the beginning there are only some supporters and many critics. This really doesn't matter since it is normal. Time is due for changes. You can see the "wind of changes" in so many things. And localisation in a globalised world is the basics for communication. If it is being stopped here, well, it really doesn't matter since then it will be someone else to do it. The thing is: it will happen, there's no doubt - the question is only: are we going to be part of it or not.

I still underline: taking a private or semi private discussion here in such a way is not the appropriate way. There was no reason for an aggression like that. There could have been a simple mail that stating the situation and the considerations to that.

And now I am going back to the electrical current ... and if in approx. half a year's time Sardegna will be without electrical current you will know whose fault it is :-)

I'll read the other mails I did not answer up to now hopefully this evenings if my two earthquakes allow it.

Ciao, Sabine

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