Crosspost to: foundation-l, wikitech-l
At the end of 2002 on my request the mailing list Announce-l was created.
This because I noticed there was a serious problem whit internal communication inside Wikipedia. Changes where done to the software, important decisions where made whitout anybody who is not a mailing list junky to know about it. Especially the problem to get information form the English language community to the others.
The idea was to use the mailing list Announce-l for the announcement of important things that have a impact for all wikipedias in all languages. This for technical and organisational matters. So at least it could be possible to inform the non-English wikipdias about what was going on and maybe even give some feedback.
It has received whit an 100% positive responds but only one (1) reaction. Again; thank you Daniel Mayer. So it never happened.
We are now 3 years later.
In general, things are a bit better. Aldo I think my original idea would still be useful.
Now I would like to ask of the following "light edition" of Announce-l can get support and implemented.
- use Announce-l for the reporting of problems whit the operation of the services of the Wikimedia projects. Status reports about it and when it works again.
Not for discussing or for bug rapports, only to inform the community. A moderated list, low traffic.
This should be done by the technical staff of wikimedia.
Examples;
== search function ==
Some time ago a received by the email system for questions to the Dutch Wikipedia some questions why the can not find the new articles the have written.
I know that the search function is not live but it works whit a special search database. So I asked them to wait until an update. But because it takes so long for the update I have asked on the lists about it. It seems that the update system is broken so new articles can not be found.
So now I can inform other users when there are questions about it and can put up an notice on the search page about this.
When will I work again? I can only test to see.
For something like this Announce-l can be used. When it is known that the update function for the search system does not work anymore a member of the technical staf can send an message to Announce-l. And when it works again or there is news about it again.
== OTRS ==
On a normal day the Dutch Wikipedia receives about 8 emails form visitors. How the emails are done is an important part of how we can make a good impression. All emails must be answered fast and professional.
Because I noticed the lack of new emails I start investigation. On bugzilla no clue, only a ticket a have created so time ago when OTRS was also not working. On the IRC #wikimedia-servers (or something like that) I found a notice that OTRS is down. The last message I have received from OTRS is from Saturday 13 august around 12 hours GMT. I have discovered it Tuesday around 22:00 hours.
When I know OTRS does not work or will not work I can redirect the incoming emails so the do not go to OTRS and we can answer them outside OTRS. But I need to know it does not work to do so.
Also for this Announce-l would be very useful. Send an email "OTRS is down, emails are in a que" or so and again when it works again.
Or when there will be an upgrade of MediaWiki. To say between X and x we will upgrade the wiki to version X of MediaWiki. During the upgrade the database will be locked for about 10 minutes.
Sysops will have after the upgrade have the option to rename account. See http://some-place_whit_more_info.org
Now new functions are discovered after an upgrade.
If, and only if, Announce-l is always used for this type of things this list can become very useful for those wikipedians who like to inform there community and visitors about what i going on whit there wiki.
On 8/17/05, Walter Vermeir . walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
Crosspost to: foundation-l, wikitech-l
At the end of 2002 on my request the mailing list Announce-l was created.
Hi, For what it's worth, a few months ago, partly at my instigation, we set up the foundation-news-l list, which was originally to announce the publication of the Quarto - possibly with a pared down version of its content in a html email, but this idea was booed quite loudly off the wikipedia-l list. However, we haven't yet got around to doing anything about it or defining it specifically, other than labelling it "news from the wikimedia foundation". See: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-news-l
Would it be an idea to use this mailing list for the purpose you propose, or just in a more general way? I'm cross-posting this to the quarto-l list to see what people there think.
Cormac
Cormac Lawler schreef:
Hi, For what it's worth, a few months ago, partly at my instigation, we set up the foundation-news-l list, which was originally to announce the publication of the Quarto - possibly with a pared down version of its content in a html email, but this idea was booed quite loudly off the wikipedia-l list. However, we haven't yet got around to doing anything about it or defining it specifically, other than labelling it "news from the wikimedia foundation". See: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-news-l
Would it be an idea to use this mailing list for the purpose you propose, or just in a more general way? I'm cross-posting this to the quarto-l list to see what people there think.
Cormac
Of it is http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-news-l or http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/Announce-l
is not important. Only that that er is a place where you can easy get basic information about the status of the wikimedia systems that have an impact for the users.
Cormac Lawler wrote:
On 8/17/05, Walter Vermeir . walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
Crosspost to: foundation-l, wikitech-l
At the end of 2002 on my request the mailing list Announce-l was created.
Hi, For what it's worth, a few months ago, partly at my instigation, we set up the foundation-news-l list, which was originally to announce the publication of the Quarto - possibly with a pared down version of its content in a html email, but this idea was booed quite loudly off the wikipedia-l list. However, we haven't yet got around to doing anything about it or defining it specifically, other than labelling it "news from the wikimedia foundation". See: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-news-l
Would it be an idea to use this mailing list for the purpose you propose, or just in a more general way? I'm cross-posting this to the quarto-l list to see what people there think.
Cormac
I am not certain Cormac, though open to any suggestion. The reason is simply that it will make appear that any communication issue is in the hands of the Foundation, rather than in the hands of the community itself. I think this is wrong for the following reasons
1) some wikipedians do not want to be recognised at wikimedians, being somehow default members of the structure
2) some wikipedians will feel this as an overbearing control of the Foundation over communication. This is wrong. In all "democracies" (using the word on purpose to reflect Erik Zachte mail), it is important that several medias report information. As such, as Michael best put it, it is important independant newspapers such as the one on the english wikipedia exist. Similarly, an independant announcement mailing list could exist, possibly to announce informations that the Foundation feel not concerned with, but that the community would
3) as soon as the Foundation is concerned, I feel that there is something blocking people. Look at Quarto. To get it done, we have to contact people each time. I would love that people feel empowered to publish in it about something that matters to them. But they won't do it, for whatever reasons. I regret this. Similarly, for the announcement of last Quarto, why was it not done ? I still wonder if it was not done because nobody was interested in doing so (or had no time to do it), or if it was somehow that someone waited silently for me to say "let's go". I do not know. But in no way announcements should have to be always pushed by a couple of people. So, if an announcement list have to be set up, I do not want people from the board to be involved in it, to avoid people saying again that there is no democracy at all. It is so far away from what my perception is what we are doing that I wish it to be fully independant.
ant
On 8/17/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
I am not certain Cormac, though open to any suggestion. The reason is simply that it will make appear that any communication issue is in the hands of the Foundation, rather than in the hands of the community itself. I think this is wrong for the following reasons
- some wikipedians do not want to be recognised at wikimedians, being
somehow default members of the structure
- some wikipedians will feel this as an overbearing control of the
Foundation over communication. This is wrong. In all "democracies" (using the word on purpose to reflect Erik Zachte mail), it is important that several medias report information. As such, as Michael best put it, it is important independant newspapers such as the one on the english wikipedia exist. Similarly, an independant announcement mailing list could exist, possibly to announce informations that the Foundation feel not concerned with, but that the community would
- as soon as the Foundation is concerned, I feel that there is
something blocking people. Look at Quarto. To get it done, we have to contact people each time. I would love that people feel empowered to publish in it about something that matters to them. But they won't do it, for whatever reasons. I regret this. Similarly, for the announcement of last Quarto, why was it not done ? I still wonder if it was not done because nobody was interested in doing so (or had no time to do it), or if it was somehow that someone waited silently for me to say "let's go". I do not know. But in no way announcements should have to be always pushed by a couple of people. So, if an announcement list have to be set up, I do not want people from the board to be involved in it, to avoid people saying again that there is no democracy at all. It is so far away from what my perception is what we are doing that I wish it to be fully independant.
ant
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
That's a fundamentally good point, and I take it wholeheartedly (although I don't understand wikipedians not wanting to be wikimedians - am i being naiive or is it just them?)
I was just noting that one mailing list isn't being used at all - and it's not clear, from the continual list of subscribers, that these people are simply signing up for news of the Quarto, or something more like what Walter is asking for, since that's how it appears to be "branded". I'll leave specific references to the Quarto out for the moment, because Walter's question is one we all have and was voiced at Wikimania and so we should answer it. So do we need it, or is it duplicating something we already have?
Cormac
Cormac Lawler schreef:
moment, because Walter's question is one we all have and was voiced at Wikimania and so we should answer it. So do we need it, or is it duplicating something we already have?
Cormac
Yes? You all have voiced that question? Great. That is a start.
Of it would be duplicating something we already have; on some level yes. If you watch the postings of the technical mailing lists and the bugs of Bugzilla and the technical IRC channels I suppose you can find this information also. But is hidden inside many other information.
It is not practical. it is like if you work in a company then tech support will send an email to all the users the inform them that the file server will be down form 16 hours. The will not assume that you have read the technical notice somewhere hidden in an obscure part of the Intranet and not inform there users.
Sending a clear notice to an central point to inform the users of a system about the status is so normal that it should not be something to discuss about.
On 8/18/05, Walter Vermeir walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
Sending a clear notice to an central point to inform the users of a system about the status is so normal that it should not be something to discuss about.
Completely agreed. Wheter it is a mailing list that people can subscribe to, or a blog (there is one I think, but maybe not advertised enough?) or an info page which gives important information such as "OTRS is down, will be for a week, contact so and so to get emails redirected", it is important that the community be informed of technical issues that have an impact on the projects as a whole, or on the work some people do. OTRS down certainly has a greater impact than people might think.
Just as an example, the hosting company I use for my emails and website has a company.info page that is run on a different server, and that keeps the users updated on what is going wrong, what is being done, etc. It has been widely advertised, and is a great help when things go wrong. Maybe we already have the tools, and just don't know about them. If that is the case, maybe a little advertisement would do the trick.
Best,
Delphine
On 8/18/05, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/18/05, Walter Vermeir walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
Sending a clear notice to an central point to inform the users of a system about the status is so normal that it should not be something to discuss about.
Completely agreed. Wheter it is a mailing list that people can subscribe to, or a blog (there is one I think, but maybe not advertised enough?) or an info page...
The problem at the moment isn't that these things don't exist. It's that too many of them exist. If someone does notify a mailing list, they get complaints about why they didn't also notify half a dozen other mailing lists, or the village pump, or the blog, or goings-on, or IRC, or meta, or ...
Is another mailing list actually going to solve this? Are people going to accept that there is one place for this information? What about those who don't want to be on a mailing list and feel this information should be on the wiki? Where are translations going to occur? If the list is aimed to be low-traffic, sending dozens of translations every time something is posted isn't going to be too popular. If the aim is to get information out in a timely way, waiting until a message is translated won't really help to meet that requirement. If every language has a separate announcements list, it won't help to meet the goal of having one central point of information.
I'm not saying I oppose the idea. I don't, and I think something like this is very much needed. I'm just concerned the solution isn't as easy as simply creating a new mailing list.
Angela.
On 8/18/05, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
Is another mailing list actually going to solve this? Are people going to accept that there is one place for this information? What about those who don't want to be on a mailing list and feel this information should be on the wiki? Where are translations going to occur? If the list is aimed to be low-traffic, sending dozens of translations every time something is posted isn't going to be too popular. If the aim is to get information out in a timely way, waiting until a message is translated won't really help to meet that requirement. If every language has a separate announcements list, it won't help to meet the goal of having one central point of information.
I'm not saying I oppose the idea. I don't, and I think something like this is very much needed. I'm just concerned the solution isn't as easy as simply creating a new mailing list.
Oh, I completely agree about not creating another mailing list. The opt-in idea is anyway never going to solve the problem. About translations, on this particular subject, I would argue that they are not needed, no more than we have ever translated the "Sorry we have a problem". If we can use an existing page, or blog, or accessible place for that kind of information, I would be more than happy. As I said, this is all about advertising that place so that people know where to look.
Best,
Delphine
Angela <beesley@...> writes:
Is another mailing list actually going to solve this? Are people going to accept that there is one place for this information? What about those who don't want to be on a mailing list and feel this information should be on the wiki? Where are translations going to occur? If the list is aimed to be low-traffic, sending dozens of translations every time something is posted isn't going to be too popular. If the aim is to get information out in a timely way, waiting until a message is translated won't really help to meet that requirement. If every language has a separate announcements list, it won't help to meet the goal of having one central point of information.
You make it to complicated.
I think another mailings list *if* it is used correctly can solve this. An mailing list is low tech. Easy to use. If you make it complicated the small change that it actually will happen is even smaller.
If the people who are always looking at the technical IRC channels and the other raw sources of information about the state of Wikimedia technical are willing to send an email to an central point then the others can take it over. It would be a big thing if the would be willing to do that.
You inform the other mailing lists about this announce list, and so far the still exist the ambassadors. And then it is for every wiki to see there is an member of there community to watch that list and relay it to there community and translate it, put it on whatever place the like on there wiki.
I try to do this for my home-wiki. The other wiki's must take there responsibility. If you want the info, there is the list for it. If you do not read it do not complain about it.
I'm not saying I oppose the idea. I don't, and I think something like this is very much needed. I'm just concerned the solution isn't as easy as simply creating a new mailing list.
Angela.
It could be a deluxe webbased system with default translated scripts and auto- posting on many pages on many wiki's by a bot. But a plain mailing list where wikipedians can get this info and inform there home-wiki about it will do.
Greetings, Walter
Delphine Ménard <notafishz@...> writes:
Completely agreed. Wheter it is a mailing list that people can subscribe to, or a blog (there is one I think, but maybe not advertised enough?) or an info page which gives important information such as "OTRS is down, will be for a week, contact so and so to get emails redirected", it is important that the community be informed of technical issues that have an impact on the projects as a whole, or on the work some people do. OTRS down certainly has a greater impact than people might think.
Do not forget that the Q4 funddrive will start very soon. That can lead to important questions from visitors or sponsers or so.
I suggest that all Wiki-projects make sure the have an working contactpoint. You can use the "owner" emailadress adress of your local mailinglist so you have a @wikipedia.org adress.
Walter
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org