Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko | wikipedia: Ата https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ата
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis ----
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements
Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements. I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help Readers Web team.
Best, Alaa https://w.wiki/JNQ
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org On Behalf Of Vira Motorko Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko | wikipedia: Ата https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ата
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis ----
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements -- *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate http://donate.wikimedia.org/. * _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Thanks for bringing this topic! At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style, and it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will take for any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where to insert an image to avoid sandwiching.
BUT...
I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what we need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those who don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on with big changes.
Best
Galder ________________________________ From: Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of Ala'a Najjar ala201041@hotmail.com Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: ovasileva@wikimedia.org ovasileva@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements. I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help Readers Web team.
Best, Alaa https://w.wiki/JNQ
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org On Behalf Of Vira Motorko Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko | wikipedia: Ата https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ата
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis ----
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements -- *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate http://donate.wikimedia.org/. * _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Vira, Ala'a, and Galder,
Thanks for your feedback - we’re really glad you’re enjoying the changes we’ve made so far. I wanted to point out that this is not all! The deployed changes are a part of a larger series of improvements that we will be rolling out progressively over the next 1+ years. To see a list of the other features we are planning on working on, please check out our project page[1]. In addition, we believe that even after the project is complete, there will still be work to do. We’d like to view this project as a new baseline on which we can build new functionality that can improve both reading and editing in the future.
Thanks again!
- Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:06 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for bringing this topic! At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style, and it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will take for any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where to insert an image to avoid sandwiching.
BUT...
I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what we need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those who don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on with big changes.
Best
Galder
*From:* Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of Ala'a Najjar ala201041@hotmail.com *Sent:* Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Cc:* ovasileva@wikimedia.org ovasileva@wikimedia.org *Subject:* Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements. I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help Readers Web team.
Best, Alaa https://w.wiki/JNQ
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org On Behalf Of Vira Motorko Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko < https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko%3E | wikipedia: Ата < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:%D0%90%D1%82%D0%B0%3E
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements -- *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate http://donate.wikimedia.org/. * _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, < mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, < mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>
Indeed! The FINAL stage of the changes is deeply conservative and not a change at all. It's a small lifting, but not a real change. We are now 10 years old, and with the new changes we will be 8 years old in a year, instead of being 11 years old. ________________________________ From: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 1:53 PM To: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi Vira, Ala'a, and Galder,
Thanks for your feedback - we’re really glad you’re enjoying the changes we’ve made so far. I wanted to point out that this is not all! The deployed changes are a part of a larger series of improvements that we will be rolling out progressively over the next 1+ years. To see a list of the other features we are planning on working on, please check out our project page[1]. In addition, we believe that even after the project is complete, there will still be work to do. We’d like to view this project as a new baseline on which we can build new functionality that can improve both reading and editing in the future.
Thanks again!
- Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:06 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> wrote: Thanks for bringing this topic! At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style, and it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will take for any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where to insert an image to avoid sandwiching.
BUT...
I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what we need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those who don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on with big changes.
Best
Galder ________________________________ From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of Ala'a Najjar <ala201041@hotmail.commailto:ala201041@hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Cc: ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org <ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements. I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help Readers Web team.
Best, Alaa https://w.wiki/JNQ
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> On Behalf Of Vira Motorko Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko | wikipedia: Ата https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ата
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva <ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org> Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis ----
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements -- *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate http://donate.wikimedia.org/. * _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Olga Vasileva // Lead Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donatehttp://donate.wikimedia.org/.
I don't think the approach "we are going to see resistance anyway, so lets make it a bigger change" has proven to be terribly helpful in the past year or so.
These layout changes are hard for sure, but there are definitely ways to bring people on board. The thing is, not every exciting change is necessarily going to help everyone to the same extent, and it's hard to convince a really diverse community. But there are a few tricks that we should definitely keep using, that are nothing new to the developing community: don't surprise (iterate and be public), try it out in a willing community (check) and try to remain backward compatible (how long have we supported the monobook skin now?).
I actually feel that a constant change is more helpful, because it gives less of a 'now we have to fight to keep our ways' - it allows people to see that they will like some changes, and dislike some others, but on a balance, it'll improve for everyone. It's probably more time consuming because it requires more consultation too, but I think it's worth it.
Lodewijk
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:00 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Indeed! The FINAL stage of the changes is deeply conservative and not a change at all. It's a small lifting, but not a real change. We are now 10 years old, and with the new changes we will be 8 years old in a year, instead of being 11 years old. ________________________________ From: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 1:53 PM To: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi Vira, Ala'a, and Galder,
Thanks for your feedback - we’re really glad you’re enjoying the changes we’ve made so far. I wanted to point out that this is not all! The deployed changes are a part of a larger series of improvements that we will be rolling out progressively over the next 1+ years. To see a list of the other features we are planning on working on, please check out our project page[1]. In addition, we believe that even after the project is complete, there will still be work to do. We’d like to view this project as a new baseline on which we can build new functionality that can improve both reading and editing in the future.
Thanks again!
- Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:06 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> wrote: Thanks for bringing this topic! At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style, and it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will take for any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where to insert an image to avoid sandwiching.
BUT...
I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what we need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those who don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on with big changes.
Best
Galder ________________________________ From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of Ala'a Najjar < ala201041@hotmail.commailto:ala201041@hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Cc: ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org < ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements. I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help Readers Web team.
Best, Alaa https://w.wiki/JNQ
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> On Behalf Of Vira Motorko Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko < https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko%3E | wikipedia: Ата < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:%D0%90%D1%82%D0%B0%3E
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva <ovasileva@wikimedia.org<mailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org
Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements -- *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate http://donate.wikimedia.org/. * _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Olga Vasileva // Lead Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate< http://donate.wikimedia.org/%3E. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hey all,
I've asked some technicalities in the feedback page (and will continue to do so as I test the new look more) but I was wondering about two things that deserve to be discussed in a larger forum: 1. Why bundle the changes? The collapsible toolbar could be a useful feature in itself, even for those who are firmly against the narrow-down content area. It could also be the basis for more radical changes, such as a "no distraction mode". 2. Why change Vector rather than creating a new skin or starting from a 3-column skin such as Timeless? I assume it has more to do with community dynamics than technical reasons...
Thanks, Strainu
În mar., 25 aug. 2020 la 20:06, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com a scris:
I don't think the approach "we are going to see resistance anyway, so lets make it a bigger change" has proven to be terribly helpful in the past year or so.
These layout changes are hard for sure, but there are definitely ways to bring people on board. The thing is, not every exciting change is necessarily going to help everyone to the same extent, and it's hard to convince a really diverse community. But there are a few tricks that we should definitely keep using, that are nothing new to the developing community: don't surprise (iterate and be public), try it out in a willing community (check) and try to remain backward compatible (how long have we supported the monobook skin now?).
I actually feel that a constant change is more helpful, because it gives less of a 'now we have to fight to keep our ways' - it allows people to see that they will like some changes, and dislike some others, but on a balance, it'll improve for everyone. It's probably more time consuming because it requires more consultation too, but I think it's worth it.
Lodewijk
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:00 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Indeed! The FINAL stage of the changes is deeply conservative and not a change at all. It's a small lifting, but not a real change. We are now 10 years old, and with the new changes we will be 8 years old in a year, instead of being 11 years old. ________________________________ From: Olga Vasileva ovasileva@wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 1:53 PM To: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi Vira, Ala'a, and Galder,
Thanks for your feedback - we’re really glad you’re enjoying the changes we’ve made so far. I wanted to point out that this is not all! The deployed changes are a part of a larger series of improvements that we will be rolling out progressively over the next 1+ years. To see a list of the other features we are planning on working on, please check out our project page[1]. In addition, we believe that even after the project is complete, there will still be work to do. We’d like to view this project as a new baseline on which we can build new functionality that can improve both reading and editing in the future.
Thanks again!
- Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features
On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:06 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> wrote: Thanks for bringing this topic! At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style, and it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will take for any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where to insert an image to avoid sandwiching.
BUT...
I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what we need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those who don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on with big changes.
Best
Galder ________________________________ From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of Ala'a Najjar < ala201041@hotmail.commailto:ala201041@hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Cc: ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org < ovasileva@wikimedia.orgmailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements. I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can help Readers Web team.
Best, Alaa https://w.wiki/JNQ
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> On Behalf Of Vira Motorko Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop Improvements coming to Vector
Hi all,
I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year, features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their preferences to make new Vector visible.
Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
See email text and links below. *--* *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко* mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko < https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko%3E | wikipedia: Ата < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:%D0%90%D1%82%D0%B0%3E
---------- Forwarded message --------- Від: Olga Vasileva <ovasileva@wikimedia.org<mailto:ovasileva@wikimedia.org
Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33 Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on early adopter wikis
Hi all,
We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based on research and existing tools built by our communities.
Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience - something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read, edit, and perform common functionality.
Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading, editing, or moderating.
Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a decrease in eye strain
You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the appearance tab of your user preferences.
We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the project itself - please head to our project page [3].
Thank you!
Olga
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements -- *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
*Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate http://donate.wikimedia.org/. * _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Olga Vasileva // Lead Product Manager // Web https://wikimediafoundation.org/
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate< http://donate.wikimedia.org/%3E. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 22:36, Strainu strainu10@gmail.com wrote:
- Why bundle the changes? The collapsible toolbar could be a useful
feature in itself, even for those who are firmly against the narrow-down content area. It could also be the basis for more radical changes, such as a "no distraction mode".
Do you mean these should be individual opt-in options, so every editor can customize their preferred version? I like that idea, I think it would make community acceptance much easier. However, for readers (unregistered users) the developer team has difficulties enabling to customize their experience, so the majority of the users (readers) would probably see a default version, bringing us back to the question: what that default should be.
2. Why change Vector rather than creating a new skin or starting from
a 3-column skin such as Timeless? I assume it has more to do with community dynamics than technical reasons...
I've had the same two questions before the project started (Build upon Timeless https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Archive1#Build_upon_Timeless_skin ). The technical reason would be that Timeless isn't targeting old browsers that's supported by the WMF and accessibility is not a primary concern. Both of these could be rectified easily, however. The actual reason seems to be that Timeless was never considered, as that is a "volunteer" skin, not an official one. This strict distinction between official and volunteer solutions is a cultural constraint that makes it impossible to fully realize the developer community's potential IMHO.
The reason to not create a new skin is not documented. The few comments suggest the developers felt this will be easier to manage and to keep the common parts in sync. Initially that was true, but by now Vector became two skins in one, a significant part of the code being duplicated. Furthermore, this complicates the task of gadget and user style creators, which was not taken into consideration. In any case, either making a new skin or making two skins in one has their own, different difficulties that would be close in a comparison, but in the long run it would be cleaner to have them separately.
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 14:00, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Indeed! The FINAL stage of the changes is deeply conservative and not a change at all. It's a small lifting, but not a real change. We are now 10 years old, and with the new changes we will be 8 years old in a year, instead of being 11 years old.
I'd say the final stage will be 5 years old, other than that our estimates are quite close :-D Still, it's a very much needed facelift and the design is a good balance IMHO.
Aron (Demian) http://demian-demo.epizy.com/wiki/Desktop_Improvements_volunteer_demo - most of the project implemented
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org