Please send me only necessary massege. Thanke, by- yeske group
On 12/19/10, foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Dan Rosenthal)
2. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Dan Rosenthal)
3. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Dan Rosenthal)
4. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Huib Laurens)
5. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Pedro Sanchez)
6. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Dan Rosenthal)
7. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Casey Brown)
8. Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department?
(Dan Rosenthal)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:50:52 -0500
From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <8C7DD397-F412-43A2-9103-7F8575F57E53(a)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Nemo,
It is in fact correct. I can confirm this, because I am the primary person
who screens those questions that come in to legal-en.
Sue or Steven can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm 99% sure that
they misspoke -- legal@wikimedia has been a broken and useless address for
long before I started working for the WMF.
-Dan Rosenthal
On Dec 18, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Dan Rosenthal, 17/12/2010 01:01:
If you have a legal question, best to send it to
legal-en(a)wikimedia.org.
It will be routed much faster and is much preferable.
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double
check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer
like Jon has confirmed so.
?00:18 <+sgardner> If anyone (editors, chapters people, etc.) have legal
questions or problems, Steven's correct --
legal_AT_wikimedia.org is
where to send them?
(
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-10-27
).
I hope this is enough.
Nemo
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:59:37 -0500
From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <E44661F2-541C-4C61-B617-A2F3E4548E2A(a)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jon,
That must be a new change about legal(a)wikimedia.org, as the email didn't
work as of a few weeks ago. I wasn't aware of that.
However, from a policy perspective, we've always screened the email first at
legal-en(a)wikimedia.org before sending it on to the GC. So in fact, that
would still be the better place for it to go.
-Dan
On Dec 16, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Jon Davis wrote:
I've been taking care of these aliases, so to
be clear: *
legal(a)wikimedia.org is a good and valid address to use*. It is an alias
that goes to the correct person(s), being our interim legal council. When
we get a new full time council, the alias will be repointed to them. So
legal(a)wikimedia.org will always be a good and safe bet.
-Jon
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 07:28, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com> wrote:
That email is incorrect.
The direct email is legal-en(a)wikimedia.org.
As far as I know, simply legal(a)wikimedia.org forwards to
board(a)wikimedia.org or some other email address; either way, not where it
needs to go.
-Dan
On Dec 16, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Huib Laurens wrote:
Hello,
As far as I know: Legal(a)wikimedia.org
Best,
Huib
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--
Jon Davis
Office IT System & Network Administrator
Wikimedia Foundation
415-839-6885
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:04:26 -0500
From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <47A9CF88-CA59-429B-82AA-FE047117D51E(a)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Correction. I've just seen Jon's email about having fixed legal@.
However, it is still preferable to send legal email to
legal-en(a)wikimedia.org for a faster resolution and for ease on our end.
Nobody has made the OTRS team (especially the legal team) aware of any
policy changes on that end, so if something major has changed without
telling us, someone's got some explaining to do.
-Dan
On Dec 18, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Dan Rosenthal, 17/12/2010 01:01:
If you have a legal question, best to send it to
legal-en(a)wikimedia.org.
It will be routed much faster and is much preferable.
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double
check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer
like Jon has confirmed so.
?00:18 <+sgardner> If anyone (editors, chapters people, etc.) have legal
questions or problems, Steven's correct --
legal_AT_wikimedia.org is
where to send them?
(
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-10-27
).
I hope this is enough.
Nemo
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 18:21:10 +0100
From: Huib Laurens <sterkebak(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=2VBivnKDcZ5XYv4BMo-drcG1nVx=O0qG0dd=7(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If staff says use
legal(a)wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Best,
Huib
2010/12/18 Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
Correction. I've just seen Jon's email
about having fixed legal@.
However, it is still preferable to send legal email to
legal-en(a)wikimedia.org for a faster resolution and for ease on our end.
Nobody has made the OTRS team (especially the legal team) aware of any
policy changes on that end, so if something major has changed without
telling us, someone's got some explaining to do.
-Dan
On Dec 18, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Dan Rosenthal, 17/12/2010 01:01:
> If you have a legal question, best to send it to
> legal-en(a)wikimedia.org.
It will be routed much faster and is much preferable.
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double
check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer
like Jon has confirmed so.
?00:18 <+sgardner> If anyone (editors, chapters people, etc.) have legal
questions or problems, Steven's correct --
legal_AT_wikimedia.org is
where to send them?
(
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-10-27).
I hope this is enough.
Nemo
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--
Regards,
Huib "Abigor" Laurens
Support Free Knowledge:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:22:49 -0600
From: Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=UvXh5mdpDnci9f6ZLoj+jmWAEe2o1PjH3PxR9(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Huib Laurens <sterkebak(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If
staff says use
legal(a)wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Best,
Huib
wasn't legal-en@ about english queries?
in any case, it makes more sense to have legal@ for a *foundation*
contact, and then have legal-en as a subqueue for english wikipedia
(and related projects)
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:38:37 -0500
From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <8E73F7FD-0E3C-43B3-A0C8-627D036567E9(a)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Pedro-
Correct, it's just set up wrong on OTRS. Right now Legal@ is not even an
OTRS email address. If it were, we could then structure it so the languages
were subqueues. But that'd require legal@ becoming an OTRS email address.
Huib - The staff (myself and Jon) are saying two different, contradictory
things. We are trying to figure out if this is because of an undiscussed
change of policy, or because Jon misspoke. It is of major concern, because
if all legal emails are now going directly to the interim GC, then what is
the point of having a legal queue for OTRS? But none of this was ever
discussed with us, making me think that it is more likely just a mistake.
The policy as long as I've been answering emails for the legal queue (and to
be clear, it was still the policy when I started working full time for the
foundation and at a meeting about a month ago it was still the policy) was
that legal emails were to go through OTRS, where they would be routed into
the legal queue (more accurately, the legal-en queue. We also have a very
full legal-it subqueue and some specific trademark subqueues.) Those emails
would then be screened by the OTRS legal volunteers, and some would be
answered or weeded out there. The more important ones would be forwarded on
to the General Counsel (or now, Interim General Counsel). Why would it make
sense at all to get rid of the screening on OTRS, without discussion with
the OTRS team, and suddenly route ALL emails directly to the Interim General
Counsel. Does that make any logical sense? Again, this is why I think that
there has been a mistake somewhere.
We're emailing internally to figure out what the right answer is.
-Dan
(PS: this is my personal account, my staff account is not subscribed to
foundation-l).
On Dec 18, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Pedro Sanchez wrote:
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Huib Laurens
<sterkebak(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If
staff says use
legal(a)wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Best,
Huib
wasn't legal-en@ about english queries?
in any case, it makes more sense to have legal@ for a *foundation*
contact, and then have legal-en as a subqueue for english wikipedia
(and related projects)
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:24:10 -0500
From: Casey Brown <lists(a)caseybrown.org>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=tfuus49_irDAsNDY-9n1pFHEvgF07ZbcdvYQB(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo)
<nemowiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you
should at least double
check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer
like Jon has confirmed so.
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Huib Laurens <sterkebak(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If
staff says use
legal(a)wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Wow, you guys need to stop being so accusatory and rude; please stop
assuming bad faith. No one's calling anyone a liar and they're both
actually right, but in different ways.
Dan's working with the Foundation for the fundraiser (so he's a
"staffer" too), was an early legal intern, and has manned the legal
queue on OTRS for years. Jon is a relatively new staffer with Office
IT who's been helping cleanup e-mail addresses, aliases, and
everything else related to Office IT.
Stated simply, Jon was giving a *technical* answer, while Dan was
giving a more *procedural* and policy-based answer.
Here's the full story/background, as far as I know:
Traditionally, we never really published a "legal" address. All
complaints/issues were directed to the general Wikimedia contact
address (info@wikimedia), which leads to OTRS. These complaints were
then later sorted to their proper destination: info-en, another
language queue, out to a staff member, to the legal queue, etc.
Tickets needing legal team attention, like from real lawyers talking
about litigation, went to the legal queue. Since the legal queue/team
is quite small and most people do not actually need to talk to them,
we never publicized the direct address to the legal queue... this is
the legal-en@ address that Dan's talking about.
More recently, a "legal@" alias has been created which goes straight
to the current/interim General Counsel. I would assume that the
reason this was created was because the Foundation has started using
aliases a lot more. They probably didn't realize that we
intentionally didn't make that address since most people didn't
actually *need* the GC... or they did realize that, but decided it
wouldn't be an issue anymore and decided that an alias would be a good
idea anyway. :-)
As Dan says, they'll need to figure out internally how mail should be
redirected properly and how to make the best use of both the legal
team and the interim GC's times. However, I wanted to make it clear
that neither of them is really "wrong" or calling each other a liar.
:-)
--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:38:40 -0500
From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal
department?
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <79CAEDFE-C8D4-4725-83B9-92A5142F2799(a)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Kibble, you never cease to amaze. Much <3. That's a great summary.
-Dan
On Dec 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Casey Brown wrote:
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva
(Nemo)
<nemowiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you
should at least double
check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer
like Jon has confirmed so.
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Huib Laurens <sterkebak(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If
staff says use
legal(a)wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Wow, you guys need to stop being so accusatory and rude; please stop
assuming bad faith. No one's calling anyone a liar and they're both
actually right, but in different ways.
Dan's working with the Foundation for the fundraiser (so he's a
"staffer" too), was an early legal intern, and has manned the legal
queue on OTRS for years. Jon is a relatively new staffer with Office
IT who's been helping cleanup e-mail addresses, aliases, and
everything else related to Office IT.
Stated simply, Jon was giving a *technical* answer, while Dan was
giving a more *procedural* and policy-based answer.
Here's the full story/background, as far as I know:
Traditionally, we never really published a "legal" address. All
complaints/issues were directed to the general Wikimedia contact
address (info@wikimedia), which leads to OTRS. These complaints were
then later sorted to their proper destination: info-en, another
language queue, out to a staff member, to the legal queue, etc.
Tickets needing legal team attention, like from real lawyers talking
about litigation, went to the legal queue. Since the legal queue/team
is quite small and most people do not actually need to talk to them,
we never publicized the direct address to the legal queue... this is
the legal-en@ address that Dan's talking about.
More recently, a "legal@" alias has been created which goes straight
to the current/interim General Counsel. I would assume that the
reason this was created was because the Foundation has started using
aliases a lot more. They probably didn't realize that we
intentionally didn't make that address since most people didn't
actually *need* the GC... or they did realize that, but decided it
wouldn't be an issue anymore and decided that an alias would be a good
idea anyway. :-)
As Dan says, they'll need to figure out internally how mail should be
redirected properly and how to make the best use of both the legal
team and the interim GC's times. However, I wanted to make it clear
that neither of them is really "wrong" or calling each other a liar.
:-)
--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023
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