Please send me only necessary massege. Thanke, by- yeske group
On 12/19/10, foundation-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org foundation-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Dan Rosenthal)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Dan Rosenthal)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Dan Rosenthal)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Huib Laurens)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Pedro Sanchez)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Dan Rosenthal)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Casey Brown)
- Re: How to contact the foundation's legal department? (Dan Rosenthal)
Message: 1 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:50:52 -0500 From: Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 8C7DD397-F412-43A2-9103-7F8575F57E53@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Nemo,
It is in fact correct. I can confirm this, because I am the primary person who screens those questions that come in to legal-en.
Sue or Steven can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm 99% sure that they misspoke -- legal@wikimedia has been a broken and useless address for long before I started working for the WMF.
-Dan Rosenthal On Dec 18, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Dan Rosenthal, 17/12/2010 01:01:
If you have a legal question, best to send it to legal-en@wikimedia.org. It will be routed much faster and is much preferable.
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer like Jon has confirmed so. ?00:18 <+sgardner> If anyone (editors, chapters people, etc.) have legal questions or problems, Steven's correct -- legal_AT_wikimedia.org is where to send them? (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-10-27 ). I hope this is enough.
Nemo
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Message: 2 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:59:37 -0500 From: Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: E44661F2-541C-4C61-B617-A2F3E4548E2A@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jon,
That must be a new change about legal@wikimedia.org, as the email didn't work as of a few weeks ago. I wasn't aware of that.
However, from a policy perspective, we've always screened the email first at legal-en@wikimedia.org before sending it on to the GC. So in fact, that would still be the better place for it to go.
-Dan
On Dec 16, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Jon Davis wrote:
I've been taking care of these aliases, so to be clear: * legal@wikimedia.org is a good and valid address to use*. It is an alias that goes to the correct person(s), being our interim legal council. When we get a new full time council, the alias will be repointed to them. So legal@wikimedia.org will always be a good and safe bet.
-Jon
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 07:28, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
That email is incorrect.
The direct email is legal-en@wikimedia.org.
As far as I know, simply legal@wikimedia.org forwards to board@wikimedia.org or some other email address; either way, not where it needs to go.
-Dan On Dec 16, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Huib Laurens wrote:
Hello,
As far as I know: Legal@wikimedia.org
Best,
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Message: 3 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:04:26 -0500 From: Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 47A9CF88-CA59-429B-82AA-FE047117D51E@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Correction. I've just seen Jon's email about having fixed legal@.
However, it is still preferable to send legal email to legal-en@wikimedia.org for a faster resolution and for ease on our end. Nobody has made the OTRS team (especially the legal team) aware of any policy changes on that end, so if something major has changed without telling us, someone's got some explaining to do.
-Dan
On Dec 18, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Dan Rosenthal, 17/12/2010 01:01:
If you have a legal question, best to send it to legal-en@wikimedia.org. It will be routed much faster and is much preferable.
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer like Jon has confirmed so. ?00:18 <+sgardner> If anyone (editors, chapters people, etc.) have legal questions or problems, Steven's correct -- legal_AT_wikimedia.org is where to send them? (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-10-27 ). I hope this is enough.
Nemo
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Message: 4 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 18:21:10 +0100 From: Huib Laurens sterkebak@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: AANLkTi=2VBivnKDcZ5XYv4BMo-drcG1nVx=O0qG0dd=7@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If staff says use legal@wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Best,
Huib
2010/12/18 Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com
Correction. I've just seen Jon's email about having fixed legal@.
However, it is still preferable to send legal email to legal-en@wikimedia.org for a faster resolution and for ease on our end. Nobody has made the OTRS team (especially the legal team) aware of any policy changes on that end, so if something major has changed without telling us, someone's got some explaining to do.
-Dan
On Dec 18, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Dan Rosenthal, 17/12/2010 01:01:
If you have a legal question, best to send it to legal-en@wikimedia.org.
It will be routed much faster and is much preferable.
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer like Jon has confirmed so. ?00:18 <+sgardner> If anyone (editors, chapters people, etc.) have legal questions or problems, Steven's correct -- legal_AT_wikimedia.org is where to send them? (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-10-27). I hope this is enough.
Nemo
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-- Regards, Huib "Abigor" Laurens
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Message: 5 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:22:49 -0600 From: Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: AANLkTi=UvXh5mdpDnci9f6ZLoj+jmWAEe2o1PjH3PxR9@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Huib Laurens sterkebak@gmail.com wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If staff says use legal@wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Best,
Huib
wasn't legal-en@ about english queries?
in any case, it makes more sense to have legal@ for a *foundation* contact, and then have legal-en as a subqueue for english wikipedia (and related projects)
Message: 6 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 12:38:37 -0500 From: Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 8E73F7FD-0E3C-43B3-A0C8-627D036567E9@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Pedro-
Correct, it's just set up wrong on OTRS. Right now Legal@ is not even an OTRS email address. If it were, we could then structure it so the languages were subqueues. But that'd require legal@ becoming an OTRS email address.
Huib - The staff (myself and Jon) are saying two different, contradictory things. We are trying to figure out if this is because of an undiscussed change of policy, or because Jon misspoke. It is of major concern, because if all legal emails are now going directly to the interim GC, then what is the point of having a legal queue for OTRS? But none of this was ever discussed with us, making me think that it is more likely just a mistake. The policy as long as I've been answering emails for the legal queue (and to be clear, it was still the policy when I started working full time for the foundation and at a meeting about a month ago it was still the policy) was that legal emails were to go through OTRS, where they would be routed into the legal queue (more accurately, the legal-en queue. We also have a very full legal-it subqueue and some specific trademark subqueues.) Those emails would then be screened by the OTRS legal volunteers, and some would be answered or weeded out there. The more important ones would be forwarded on to the General Counsel (or now, Interim General Counsel). Why would it make sense at all to get rid of the screening on OTRS, without discussion with the OTRS team, and suddenly route ALL emails directly to the Interim General Counsel. Does that make any logical sense? Again, this is why I think that there has been a mistake somewhere.
We're emailing internally to figure out what the right answer is.
-Dan
(PS: this is my personal account, my staff account is not subscribed to foundation-l).
On Dec 18, 2010, at 12:22 PM, Pedro Sanchez wrote:
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Huib Laurens sterkebak@gmail.com wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If staff says use legal@wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Best,
Huib
wasn't legal-en@ about english queries?
in any case, it makes more sense to have legal@ for a *foundation* contact, and then have legal-en as a subqueue for english wikipedia (and related projects)
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Message: 7 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:24:10 -0500 From: Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: AANLkTi=tfuus49_irDAsNDY-9n1pFHEvgF07ZbcdvYQB@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer like Jon has confirmed so.
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Huib Laurens sterkebak@gmail.com wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If staff says use legal@wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Wow, you guys need to stop being so accusatory and rude; please stop assuming bad faith. No one's calling anyone a liar and they're both actually right, but in different ways.
Dan's working with the Foundation for the fundraiser (so he's a "staffer" too), was an early legal intern, and has manned the legal queue on OTRS for years. Jon is a relatively new staffer with Office IT who's been helping cleanup e-mail addresses, aliases, and everything else related to Office IT.
Stated simply, Jon was giving a *technical* answer, while Dan was giving a more *procedural* and policy-based answer.
Here's the full story/background, as far as I know:
Traditionally, we never really published a "legal" address. All complaints/issues were directed to the general Wikimedia contact address (info@wikimedia), which leads to OTRS. These complaints were then later sorted to their proper destination: info-en, another language queue, out to a staff member, to the legal queue, etc. Tickets needing legal team attention, like from real lawyers talking about litigation, went to the legal queue. Since the legal queue/team is quite small and most people do not actually need to talk to them, we never publicized the direct address to the legal queue... this is the legal-en@ address that Dan's talking about.
More recently, a "legal@" alias has been created which goes straight to the current/interim General Counsel. I would assume that the reason this was created was because the Foundation has started using aliases a lot more. They probably didn't realize that we intentionally didn't make that address since most people didn't actually *need* the GC... or they did realize that, but decided it wouldn't be an issue anymore and decided that an alias would be a good idea anyway. :-)
As Dan says, they'll need to figure out internally how mail should be redirected properly and how to make the best use of both the legal team and the interim GC's times. However, I wanted to make it clear that neither of them is really "wrong" or calling each other a liar. :-)
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Message: 8 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:38:40 -0500 From: Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] How to contact the foundation's legal department? To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 79CAEDFE-C8D4-4725-83B9-92A5142F2799@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Kibble, you never cease to amaze. Much <3. That's a great summary.
-Dan On Dec 18, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Casey Brown wrote:
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Please stop it: this is incorrect and perhaps you should at least double check if someone says it's incorrect, especially after a WMF staffer like Jon has confirmed so.
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Huib Laurens sterkebak@gmail.com wrote:
Why are you saying the staff answer is wrong? If staff says use legal@wikimedia.org why are you changing it?
Wow, you guys need to stop being so accusatory and rude; please stop assuming bad faith. No one's calling anyone a liar and they're both actually right, but in different ways.
Dan's working with the Foundation for the fundraiser (so he's a "staffer" too), was an early legal intern, and has manned the legal queue on OTRS for years. Jon is a relatively new staffer with Office IT who's been helping cleanup e-mail addresses, aliases, and everything else related to Office IT.
Stated simply, Jon was giving a *technical* answer, while Dan was giving a more *procedural* and policy-based answer.
Here's the full story/background, as far as I know:
Traditionally, we never really published a "legal" address. All complaints/issues were directed to the general Wikimedia contact address (info@wikimedia), which leads to OTRS. These complaints were then later sorted to their proper destination: info-en, another language queue, out to a staff member, to the legal queue, etc. Tickets needing legal team attention, like from real lawyers talking about litigation, went to the legal queue. Since the legal queue/team is quite small and most people do not actually need to talk to them, we never publicized the direct address to the legal queue... this is the legal-en@ address that Dan's talking about.
More recently, a "legal@" alias has been created which goes straight to the current/interim General Counsel. I would assume that the reason this was created was because the Foundation has started using aliases a lot more. They probably didn't realize that we intentionally didn't make that address since most people didn't actually *need* the GC... or they did realize that, but decided it wouldn't be an issue anymore and decided that an alias would be a good idea anyway. :-)
As Dan says, they'll need to figure out internally how mail should be redirected properly and how to make the best use of both the legal team and the interim GC's times. However, I wanted to make it clear that neither of them is really "wrong" or calling each other a liar. :-)
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
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