For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have access to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of people on this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have access to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of people on this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Because Talk pages suck as a medium for conversation and all attempts to fix this have been shot down with venom.
On Feb 21, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
--- Brandon Harris :: bharris@gaijin.com :: made of steel wool and whiskey
People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see that there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand what Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue that many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in, unless they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to discuss issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see that there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hi all, it’s probably useful to paste in the “What for?” message for the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group. Hopefully it will help clear things up.
—- From: https://www.facebook.com/notes/wikipedia-weekly/introduction-to-the-ww-group...
This is a quick note about what goes on here in the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group. Thanks for joining what has become a useful forum in the last few years, and especially in recent months.
Perhaps a useful motto for this group is: "High signal, key voices, efficient volume." That's a label few would use to describe Wikimedia-L or on-wiki discussions, even though those are very necessary and key parts of the movement. In many ways, this is a meta-news group, pointing to the best and most interesting things happening in our community and the public. It's not meant to be a direct replacement for any venue that exists now.
This group started informally as a lively community space in lieu of, or in reaction to, Wikipedia Weekly podcast episodes. Signpost, Wikimedia chapter folks, WMF comms team, bloggers or any concerned community members are welcome in the interest of productive and informative discussions about the movement. One of the key aspects is that this is a respectful and highly interactive space that, like it or not, is Facebook's main value.
As for the public/private nature of what is said here: we probably don't have a great term for it. In some sense, it's like the open access vs TWL (The Wikipedia Library) argument – should the comments here be referenced (or given prominence) if it's firewalled behind a Facebook login. People can be expected to be quoted here, but not truly hyperlinked-to. Signpost, for example, has referenced discussions here on multiple occasions in its news stories. This group might get people to write opinions they wouldn't voice in other forums. I see that as a useful part of our communications ecosystem.
Experiments like Discourse (https://discourse.wmflabs.org/) might be the answer to help moderate the noisy, disparate and acerbic social spaces in our movement, and I welcome it. For now, I like that this group is serving an unmet need, and I thank the folks here for making it engaged and meaningful.
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand what Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue that many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in, unless they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to discuss issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post
it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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I acknowledge that a group of wikipedians may discuss in any forum, they prefer. Doing it in a closed forum on FB does not, however, constitute a discussion by the community, because it excludes a lot of people who reject i.e. the FB license, the FB terms of use, and last not least the FB privacy policy.
The latter is of special interest to me after having served as an ombudsman for wikimedia. Are people aware of the fact, that joining that group and commenting there could easily lead to their real identity being linked to their wiki user name - and that this in some cases could be more dangerous than "voicing their opinions in other forums"?
Regards, Thyge
2016-02-22 2:57 GMT+01:00 Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com:
Hi all, it’s probably useful to paste in the “What for?” message for the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group. Hopefully it will help clear things up.
—- From:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/wikipedia-weekly/introduction-to-the-ww-group...
This is a quick note about what goes on here in the Wikipedia Weekly Facebook group. Thanks for joining what has become a useful forum in the last few years, and especially in recent months.
Perhaps a useful motto for this group is: "High signal, key voices, efficient volume." That's a label few would use to describe Wikimedia-L or on-wiki discussions, even though those are very necessary and key parts of the movement. In many ways, this is a meta-news group, pointing to the best and most interesting things happening in our community and the public. It's not meant to be a direct replacement for any venue that exists now.
This group started informally as a lively community space in lieu of, or in reaction to, Wikipedia Weekly podcast episodes. Signpost, Wikimedia chapter folks, WMF comms team, bloggers or any concerned community members are welcome in the interest of productive and informative discussions about the movement. One of the key aspects is that this is a respectful and highly interactive space that, like it or not, is Facebook's main value.
As for the public/private nature of what is said here: we probably don't have a great term for it. In some sense, it's like the open access vs TWL (The Wikipedia Library) argument – should the comments here be referenced (or given prominence) if it's firewalled behind a Facebook login. People can be expected to be quoted here, but not truly hyperlinked-to. Signpost, for example, has referenced discussions here on multiple occasions in its news stories. This group might get people to write opinions they wouldn't voice in other forums. I see that as a useful part of our communications ecosystem.
Experiments like Discourse (https://discourse.wmflabs.org/) might be the answer to help moderate the noisy, disparate and acerbic social spaces in our movement, and I welcome it. For now, I like that this group is serving an unmet need, and I thank the folks here for making it engaged and meaningful.
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand what Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue that many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in,
unless
they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to
discuss
issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally
convenient
for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not
have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to
post
it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response
to
> Jonathan > Cardy's comment here: > >
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> > Anthony Cole > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I acknowledge that a group of wikipedians may discuss in any forum, they prefer. Doing it in a closed forum on FB does not, however, constitute a discussion by the community, because it excludes a lot of people who reject i.e. the FB license, the FB terms of use, and last not least the FB privacy policy.
True, though IRC also excludes a lot of people as it’s not allowed to be logged, thereby leaving many people out of the loop.
As was mentioned in the introduction message, it is not meant to replace anything that exists currently and it does not purport to declare itself “the community.” (Though “the community” has always been a vague and imperfect construct so as to be nearly meaningless, even before the emergence of this Facebook group.)
If the forum helps with engagement with our movement, I’m glad it serves that purpose, such as highlighting goings-on in spaces we already have.
The latter is of special interest to me after having served as an ombudsman for wikimedia. Are people aware of the fact, that joining that group and commenting there could easily lead to their real identity being linked to their wiki user name - and that this in some cases could be more dangerous than "voicing their opinions in other forums"?
I’d be shocked if people participating there were not aware that their IRL identities could be linked to their Wikipedia identities. That’s a determination folks have made, and are satisfied with. Though, this is probably not a bad thing to remind folks of in that intro message.
Best, -Andrew
One example of the shortcomings of emails as a medium for complex discussions is how this thread about postmortems continues to be diverted into discussions about Facebook, despite Pete's best efforts.
At the end of the day, people will prefer tools that work well over tools that align philosophically. One can sabotage the development of tools that would both work well and uphold Wikimedia's values, but cannot prevent important discussions from moving to other venues (which will necessarily be a worse match for those values). There is a lesson there, although I'm afraid it will take some more time before we learn it.
Meh, I'm fine with people talking in any venue they wish. Speaking only for myself, I don't need to read everything everyone has written; if it's something that needs to be brought to broader attention, chances are someone will facilitate it. But I think even those who are entirely happy to be on Facebook would agree there's a bit of an irony on talking about the respect for Wikimedia community values on a site that explicitly doesn't share them.
That, and it's a bit unfair to tease people.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 22:01, Gergő Tisza gtisza@gmail.com wrote:
One example of the shortcomings of emails as a medium for complex discussions is how this thread about postmortems continues to be diverted into discussions about Facebook, despite Pete's best efforts.
At the end of the day, people will prefer tools that work well over tools that align philosophically. One can sabotage the development of tools that would both work well and uphold Wikimedia's values, but cannot prevent important discussions from moving to other venues (which will necessarily be a worse match for those values). There is a lesson there, although I'm afraid it will take some more time before we learn it. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
It would be fairly trivial to archive the discussions there someplace that was publicly viewable. However, it would require consent from the ~450 (at last glance) members that their comments and the names they use on Facebook be published, and I'm not sure that's feasible. Still, it's a thought...
There is some valuable discussion that happens there, and it would be neat to replicate it somewhere more accessible and free, even in a read-only format.
– Molly (GorillaWarfare)
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Molly White < gorillawarfarewikipedia@gmail.com> wrote:
It would be fairly trivial to archive the discussions there someplace that was publicly viewable. However, it would require consent from the ~450 (at last glance) members that their comments and the names they use on Facebook be published, and I'm not sure that's feasible.
I suggested that on the group a week or two ago; a few individuals strongly objected. But I agree, it would be valuable to have this option (even partially).
Two possibilities: (a) An opt-in registry somewhere, where those of us who don't mind having our public comments repeated in a different public venue can clearly assert that, as well as a blanket license for what we publish on Wikipedia Weekly; (b) Software (I don't remember the name, but Erik know it) that makes self-archiving of stuff like this easy. I don't know whether it yet has Facebook compatibility, but presumably that could be added if not.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On 2016-02-22 04:01, Gergő Tisza wrote:
One example of the shortcomings of emails as a medium for complex discussions is how this thread about postmortems continues to be diverted into discussions about Facebook, despite Pete's best efforts.
At the end of the day, people will prefer tools that work well over tools that align philosophically. One can sabotage the development of tools that would both work well and uphold Wikimedia's values, but cannot prevent important discussions from moving to other venues (which will necessarily be a worse match for those values). There is a lesson there, although I'm afraid it will take some more time before we learn it.
Meta rather than the mailing list would be the proper place to discuss such things. However, for the last many years meta has been a terrible mess, where it is impossible to find anything, and which only meta-regulars (mainly people highly involved with WMF) were able to follow on a daily basis. The introduction of the global watchlist might solve this bit of the problem.
Cheers Yaroslav
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org