Yeah. It's news for me. You really need to be careful not to replace "sometimes" by "always". We have a few hundreds of thousands of active editors over time. So obviously there are some cases where we can see things went badly. What I'm missing is the step from that to " if someone... can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will". A bit of a difference.
This is the kind of logic that (in racists) goes: "A dark skinned man nudged me on the street and didn't say sorry" ----> "all dark skinned people are rude" ----> "Dark skinned people will fuck you over if they can".
Sorry, but I don't buy it. Nor do most people here. That is possibly why other people aren't agreeing with you very much either, or jumping to your support here.
FT2
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado vam@fct.unl.ptwrote:
Oh my! That's news for you? Let's see. Just a sample from firsthand experiences.
- From Meta:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_assi...
"The work on Meta was being done in an orderly manner until the disruption provoked and caused by those same people mentioned above. The user is the same. Trouble only started after the interference of the same people from the Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been a single block on any other Wikimedia project where these editors do not have any influence. The obvious conclusion is that the hostile behavior stays with that people, not this user."
- From Wikimedia Outreach:
http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outreach_debacle
"Please edit those pages as though they were your own wiki. Make yourself at home on the Outreach wiki." Wrote Lennart. Wow! I was in awe. This project and/or these guys had the right stuff." "When I revisited Wikimedia Outreach, my user page had been deleted, my own name suppressed from my message and replaced by (Redacted)." Later, my user page was restored with this quite amazing summary: "restoring per request, it appears this user intended to out himself, removing personal address". It was decided that "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is my personal address. Well I regret to have to let you know that "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is not my "personal address". It's one of my many mailing addresses. "Apartado" is the Portuguese word for Post Office or P.O. Box, and I can assure you that I never lived there.
From the Portuguese Wikipedia:
http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educa...
http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educa...
Em engenharia, quando a obra não é executada de acordo com o projecto é um caso sério. Na Wikipédia chama-se «ajudar». «Em Roma, sê Romano.» É assim. Uma pessoa põe o seu «espírito criativo» a funcionar, é «ajudada» e pronto, lá se foi o que planeou para o «galheiro». Já se tinha agradecido, portanto, é tocar para diante e esperar por melhores dias ou que o «ajudante» vá de férias. Não há nada que um vulgar editor faça que um atento administrador, burocrata e membro do conselho de arbitragem não possa desfazer. Nesta Wikipédia o que não falta são ajudas. Se alguém encontrar por aí a definição de «período para discutir o mérito da página», agradece-se desde já.
http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educa...
With all the details of the "help" I got to be blocked for the first time. Moral of the story: I'm currently banned and my "helper" is King on the Portuguese Wikipedia, a fine example of a "meritocracy."
Even in these modest examples, if you find anything not verifiable, please let me know.
- "Furthermore, if someone, under the false
pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here." Another example:
"Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change of them changes the results." FT2
"That does not mean that there are not isolated cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community." Fred
Could some "consensus" be reached on this matter?
- Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you
with the details of how extremely helpful he has been to me. Permission is granted to make public all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds.
Any further questions?
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 05:14 25-05-2011, you wrote:
Oh dear. This just lost a lot of respect (whatever respect is remaining).
So if someone (anyone?) can cause another person problems, they will? I
must
remember that as the default expectation of society, or Wikipedia communities at least. Documented as being that extreme by reliable sources no less.
Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes
lead
to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring
change
of them changes the results.
FT2
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam@fct.unl.pt wrote:
Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I'm sorry for not being as brilliant as you are, but I have read my message over and over and can't find any "always" there.
I haven't made any mention of the number of active editors. I don't know what you mean when you say that "obviously there are some cases where we can see things went badly." Nobody ever said that about what you and others like you have done to me.
You can't miss "the step from that to " if someone... can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will"." Just retrace your own steps. Please point an occasion, a message you haven't use to take another stab at me. For what purpose? I know. Doesn't anybody here?
I never made any racist comments, and it saddened me very deeply that you found it appropriate to use that as an example, therefore associating me with that kind of behavior. I do not use the kind of language that you so proudly display, again in a despicable attempt to associate me with the kind of people who do. I wonder how such a nice person such as yourself can resort to that kind of behavior and be so welcome and so highly regarded. That's why you can't be my buddy, pal, friend and why you do have so much trouble feeling any kind of empathy. "Nor do most people here. That is [...] why other people aren't agreeing with you very much either, or [standing up] to your support here."
My apologies to the list for the personal tone of this message, but I believe things were getting a bit out of hand.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 09:47 25-05-2011, you wrote:
Yeah. It's news for me. You really need to be careful not to replace "sometimes" by "always". We have a few hundreds of thousands of active editors over time. So obviously there are some cases where we can see things went badly. What I'm missing is the step from that to " if someone... can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will". A bit of a difference. This is the kind of logic that (in racists) goes: "A dark skinned man nudged me on the street and didn't say sorry" ----> "all dark skinned people are rude" ----> "Dark skinned people will fuck you over if they can". Sorry, but I don't buy it. Nor do most people here. That is possibly why other people aren't agreeing with you very much either, or jumping to your support here. FT2
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado vam@fct.unl.ptwrote:
Oh my! That's news for you? Let's see. Just a sample from firsthand experiences.
1) From Meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_assi...
"The work on Meta was being done in an orderly manner until the disruption provoked and caused by those same people mentioned above. The user is the same. Trouble only started after the interference of the same people from the Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been a single block on any other Wikimedia project where these editors do not have any influence. The obvious conclusion is that the hostile behavior stays with that people, not this user."
2) From Wikimedia Outreach: http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outreach_debacle
"Please edit those pages as though they were your own wiki. Make yourself at home on the Outreach wiki." Wrote Lennart. Wow! I was in awe. This project and/or these guys had the right stuff." "When I revisited Wikimedia Outreach, my user page had been deleted, my own name suppressed from my message and replaced by (Redacted)." Later, my user page was restored with this quite amazing summary: "restoring per request, it appears this user intended to out himself, removing personal address". It was decided that "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is my personal address. Well I regret to have to let you know that "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is not my "personal address". It's one of my many mailing addresses. "Apartado" is the Portuguese word for Post Office or P.O. Box, and I can assure you that I never lived there.
From the Portuguese Wikipedia: http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educa...
3) http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educa...
Em engenharia, quando a obra não é executada de acordo com o projecto é um caso sério. Na Wikipédia chama-se «ajudar». «Em Roma, sê Romano.» É assim. Uma pessoa põe o seu «espírito criativo» a funcionar, é «ajudada» e pronto, lá se foi o que planeou para o «galheiro». Já se tinha agradecido, portanto, é tocar para diante e esperar por melhores dias ou que o «ajudante» vá de férias. Não há nada que um vulgar editor faça que um atento administrador, burocrata e membro do conselho de arbitragem não possa desfazer. Nesta Wikipédia o que não falta são ajudas. Se alguém encontrar por aí a definição de «período para discutir o mérito da página», agradece-se desde já.
4) http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educa...
With all the details of the "help" I got to be blocked for the first time. Moral of the story: I'm currently banned and my "helper" is King on the Portuguese Wikipedia, a fine example of a "meritocracy."
Even in these modest examples, if you find anything not verifiable, please let me know.
5) "Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here." Another example:
"Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change of them changes the results." FT2
"That does not mean that there are not isolated cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community." Fred
Could some "consensus" be reached on this matter?
6) Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you with the details of how extremely helpful he has been to me. Permission is granted to make public all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds.
Any further questions?
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 05:14 25-05-2011, you wrote:
Oh dear. This just lost a lot of respect (whatever respect is remaining).
So if someone (anyone?) can cause another person problems, they will? I must remember that as the default expectation of society, or Wikipedia communities at least. Documented as being that extreme by reliable sources no less.
Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change of them changes the results.
FT2
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Virgilio A. P.
Machado vam@fct.unl.ptwrote:
Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org