Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I am not sure this is something we should be discussing on this mailing list. Please, contact the bot operator or raise it with the arwiki community.
Regards,
Isaac.
On Dec 29, 2017 10:26 AM, "K. Peachey" p858snake@gmail.com wrote:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Some reactions to welcome bot or welcomes are a little bit "exaggerated" sometimes. it's just a small red color spot in a corner. Two seconds to process it, more time to complain about it. I study user activities and sometimes I leave welcome messages here and there. 99.5% of the time is because they have some sort of activities on the platform. it happened to me one or two times per year that some users deleted a welcome message I have left here or there. A scenario that occurred more than once is wikidata and old-term users that have some issues with the fact that even if they don't want to be part to it, they do have edits indirectly on such platform. Sometimes they spent more time writing in the object why they are deleting it that simply ignoring it. I stick to the fact that with "side" platforms 95% of the users don't care, 4% reply interested or thank for the welcome or similar, and 1% (or less) have issues. Such 1% are mostly long term or established users. In the general framework, I think that leaving such templates from real users to people with some activities is potentially useful, at least to establish a connection. I also have no direct experience of anyone complaining about bot messages on other "side" platforms, I know about users discovering less "common" wiki such as some of the "Asian" ones, but they are kinda amused. Such bot welcome message arrives when you do something to log in, such as opening one of their articles for example. Or maybe you use a computer when someone else have opened them recently. We can write a meta policy to leave welcome message only with people with edits, but in the end someone could point out that informing people before they do anything if they actually entered the platform is a good strategy (why wait they have to do something? maybe they need help). On some wiki you get the message as soon as you log in, for example frwiki if I remember with a test from a friend. Why is that different? The core issue is to be sure that the welcome message has a part in one or two main world languages, and a link to the embassy page. That's the occasion to make it smarter not to remove it totally, we have the expertise to do that. For example you leave the en-N welcome message to people who have edits on enwikipedia and so on.
Alessandro
Il Venerdì 29 Dicembre 2017 10:27, K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com ha scritto:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of these languages I cannot even copypaste from. While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be bothered of them.
Vito
2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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I've usually just don't bother with them, but lately I got complaints about this specific bot, and the bot operator neglect doing anything with the problem. That is why I raise the issue, as there are no other forum where users from one project can make a complaint about misbehaving users on another project.
Given the response from the bot operator I would say I don't have a good feeling about this "welcome" at all. It is like those scam emails where you are greeted in full name. It is creepy…
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of these languages I cannot even copypaste from. While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be bothered of them.
Vito
2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
but I
can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
at
arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Looping in the Arabic Wikipedia mailing list.
FYI
Samir Elsharbaty Communications|Wikimedia Foundation
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:02 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
I've usually just don't bother with them, but lately I got complaints about this specific bot, and the bot operator neglect doing anything with the problem. That is why I raise the issue, as there are no other forum where users from one project can make a complaint about misbehaving users on another project.
Given the response from the bot operator I would say I don't have a good feeling about this "welcome" at all. It is like those scam emails where you are greeted in full name. It is creepy…
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of these languages I cannot even copypaste from. While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be bothered of them.
Vito
2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com
wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no
activity
at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
but I
can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local
contributions
at
arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_
messages
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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There are many million users registered in central auth. Most have not edited anywhere, and never even visited ar.wikipedia.org. welcoming these is actually harmful in a demonstrable way: readers will be notified of this useless welcome by email, or the notification tool. If this were multiplied across our
On 29 Dec 2017 10:20, "Vi to" vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of these languages I cannot even copypaste from. While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be bothered of them.
Vito
2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
but I
can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
at
arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Link on my email.
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:25 AM, K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com wrote:
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue?
On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity
at
that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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I cannot see malicious intention behind the use of the bot. If you don't feel spoken to, just ignore it. Why is this a so huge problem?
Greetings
Ting
Am 29.12.2017 um 10:20 schrieb John Erling Blad:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked: * How many people actually read these messages? * Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them? * Could some be removed? Could some be added? * Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner? * Is the talk page really a good place to do this? * How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hello Amir,
I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.
But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind us?
And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.
This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.
Greetings
Ting
Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Ting, You make a fair point about culture, but the impression I got is that the welcomes were being sent to people who were not intentionally editing the arwiki, or aware that they were doing so, which makes this a cultural thing imposed on people who were not aware of it or expecting it, and who did not have a way to avoid it even if they had known it might happen, which is a bit beyond local culture. For myself I am not bothered by messages from other Wikis, even if I can't read them. I am used to it, but some people are more paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ting Chen Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
Hello Amir,
I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.
But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind us?
And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.
This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.
Greetings
Ting
Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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What are the good reason to be poaranoid? The only reason I ever heard is "is making me waste time", usually expressed wasting more time. BTW, after years of SUL most of the old time users have received a lot of welcome messages and they receive usually two new ones per year, no more in my experience. I made some test with newbies and it does not see more different, when they one open some wikis they might receive a message (and if they are not used to other culture, that does not happen a lot of time, I suppose) . I can think of dozens of things in my life that spam me more, and make me more "paranoid". Yesterday I search a stupid thing and I found a related ad in my youtube after 5 minutes, I told on a chat app that I had the flue and I got a flu treatment opening a web page... spent more time being irritated by these facts, this might have a good impact on everybody's life. For wikimedia, just ask to add a link to a meta page where is written down which messages are received via bot simply after log in, so it is super transparent how it works and you learn how the build up of the SUL log in works. Put a link to CentralAuth too.
Il Sabato 30 Dicembre 2017 11:28, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net ha scritto:
Hi Ting, You make a fair point about culture, but the impression I got is that the welcomes were being sent to people who were not intentionally editing the arwiki, or aware that they were doing so, which makes this a cultural thing imposed on people who were not aware of it or expecting it, and who did not have a way to avoid it even if they had known it might happen, which is a bit beyond local culture. For myself I am not bothered by messages from other Wikis, even if I can't read them. I am used to it, but some people are more paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ting Chen Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
Hello Amir,
I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.
But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind us?
And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.
This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.
Greetings
Ting
Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here. That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been done for many years.
Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new users, but the culture we're talking about is the culture of new users; and at the same time, we're often saying that many new users have a hard time getting into Wikipedia. So the welcome templates may—or may not—be part of this problem. This is just one example of a question worth asking.
בתאריך 30 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:38, "Ting Chen" wing.philopp@gmx.de כתב:
Hello Amir,
I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.
But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about if the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous for our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do we not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it behind us?
And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.
This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.
Greetings
Ting
Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
reused across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
and have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Norwegians in general does not use welcoming phrases unless you are family, close friend, or want something from a person. Or as friend said it; you welcome your sister and mother to the family party, the guy that shall buy your old rusty car, and your girlfriend when she comes over and you want to have sex with her.
Jevlad
lør. 30. des. 2017, 13.00 skrev Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here. That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been done for many years.
Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new users, but the culture we're talking about is the culture of new users; and at the same time, we're often saying that many new users have a hard time getting into Wikipedia. So the welcome templates may—or may not—be part of this problem. This is just one example of a question worth asking.
בתאריך 30 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:38, "Ting Chen" wing.philopp@gmx.de כתב:
Hello Amir,
I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask
such
questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers.
But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions
are
not the only questions that we need to consider. I start to ask questions that are beyond or below (according to the perspective) these pure utilitarian questions. I find the answer Meno25 gave on Meta a very interesting one in this respect. In his answer he was not arguing about
if
the welcome-bot is useful or meaningful. He said it is their custom to do so. What he is pointing to is culture. See, why do we hug, shake hands, nod, or rub noses, or kiss? From a pure utilitarian point of view these behaviors are not only meaningless, they are even potentially dangerous
for
our health. If we just want to meet other people and talk to them why do
we
not just directly talk about what we want to talk about and make it
behind
us?
And this is why in my opinion it is good that every project has its own way to handle welcome message: Because the welcome message is not only a utilitarian thing, there is culture beyond or below it. There is culture encompassed from the societies where the project community is embedded in and there is culture that was created and developed by the project community.
This is why in my opinion as long as the message is not malicious how every community handles this is their own thing.
Greetings
Ting
Am 30.12.2017 um 09:29 schrieb Amir E. Aharoni:
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but
if
it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot
actually
automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's
nevertheless
an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
reused across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
and have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do
they
serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at
arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid,
but I
can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions
at
arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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It may or may not be a coincidence, but today I heard a similar complaint from somebody who occasionally edits in Hebrew, and was freaked out by a welcome message that was sent after he simply read a page in the French Wikipedia.
As Jonathan says, even if it is a privacy issue, it's not really a new one, because user creation logs have been public for a long time; it may just be more visible because of the bots.
And again, at a more appropriate time: very happy new year to all!
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John Erling Blad" jeblad@gmail.com כתב:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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There are a lot of SUL issues that are waiting to be addressed. One for example is the definition of what is not "appropriate" as a name. Another one is a centralized interface for preferences, a third one is a centralized management of key user information, a forth one is the possibility to disactivate crosswiki ping services so you can manage them only when you want to... and so on... one reasonable thing you can ask is that the message is not inserted in the talk of people with no edits, for example. Or that the welcome messages are progressively standardized, with a clear layout for the message that can be declined with the users' language preferences when they are declared. Sure, there is no point in linking me again to the five pillar, but a link to some key pages might still be useful. In any case I cannot think of it as really important, and it is to me less important than other issues related to the SUL interface. Right in these days one of my friends that I registered years ago or that was already registered (in any case a very minor contributor, with only a superficial involvement on wiki platforms) received one of this welcome message in one "non-western language". He/She found it funny. I probably have very tolerant friends... good for me! But so far I still feel that this is a problem only for a small fraction on mid-term and long-term users than for the rest of the world. I believe that if you make an extensive research these messages might have no effect (especially if left by bot), they probably have some effect if they are part of a human interaction, and there is a minority who will disagree with them strongly. Based on the human interactions and experiences in my life at the workplace, I kinda suspect that for many of these people this could be also their general attitude in other fields. Don't get me wrong, I am concerned by the abuse of psychometric and personal data on modern internet platform, I'll do whatever I could to prevent it that's why I really don't understand why these messages given by an open and linear process are such a big deal per se. To me it's like overthinking something quite superficial and that's unfortunately rarely in the interest of taking care of the real big deal, such as e.g. your personal metadata being sold to big conglomerates without your "active permission". So are my friends, and, surprise surpirse, they don't care about these welcome messages too.
Il Mercoledì 24 Gennaio 2018 4:41, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com ha scritto:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable. A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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If it has been discussed before, then it would be nice if someone can provide a pointer to that discussion.
Den ons. 24. jan. 2018, 11.29 skrev Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable. A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Seddon
*Community and Audience Engagement Associate* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Joe,
I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within days.
For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1) encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything. Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s cooperation if necessary and if possible.
John,
A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter. The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as acceptable. A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Seddon
*Community and Audience Engagement Associate* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
The information is so noisy (transclusions may trigger autocreation) and irrelevant (no information about pages, just wikis) I don't see an issue worth resolving.
Vito
2018-01-25 22:54 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Joe,
I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within days.
For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1) encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything. Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s cooperation if necessary and if possible.
John,
A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter. The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
sure
you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Seddon
*Community and Audience Engagement Associate* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.
The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account. This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not intended and not acceptable.
I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real contributors, that would be pretty simple
Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Joe,
I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within days.
For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1) encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything. Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s cooperation if necessary and if possible.
John,
A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter. The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
sure
you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- Seddon
*Community and Audience Engagement Associate* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&ta... and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account? The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data. Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.
Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com ha scritto:
I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.
The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account. This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not intended and not acceptable.
I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real contributors, that would be pretty simple
Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Joe,
I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within days.
For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1) encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything. Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s cooperation if necessary and if possible.
John,
A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter. The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
sure
you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information.
Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>:
you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps:// commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=Alexmar983 and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account? The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data. Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.
Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad <jeblad@gmail.com>ha scritto:
I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.
The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account. This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not intended and not acceptable.
I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real contributors, that would be pretty simple
Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Joe,
I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first
raised
on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed
within
days.
For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1) encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything. Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations
and
that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure,
and
I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there
are
problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s cooperation if necessary and if possible.
John,
A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from
WMF
Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter. The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break
following
which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
sure
you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on
our
behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation
about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is
satisfactory,
or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about
this
matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of
"unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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-- Seddon
*Community and Audience Engagement Associate* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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i think many people might not understand what is the real problem here with this aspect in the general framework. I might make a brutal simplification, of course. In any case, if you manage to make the moment when a logged-in user is connected to a platform for the first time a secret, that basically do not have a big impact on anything most of the people do, so I can probably tell you to go on. What would be the effect? The info will disappear from the SUL table or something like that. Whatever. But I guess, cynically, that a "non-solution" of "don't use the bot" is much more fitting for the "social ecosystem" and the way it evolves on wiki platforms. This way you did not address a higher level aspect of the issue, you remove the global feeling of alert down a notch and you can act in any case as if you did something in that direction. Also, it makes no solid precedent when future real privacy problem are discussed. That's why asking to remove the info completely, from my point of view, it's even slightly better. At least next time we discuss privacy in other matter I have a strong precedent case to cite. I mean... if people make a fuzz about this, I expect they really care about other things. I could ping all the favorable to such information removal one by one in a future RfC. Alex
Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 3:37, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com ha scritto:
Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information. Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org:
you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on certain wiki welcome messages are delivered sometimes they are not. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later. It's a very fragmented situation so the bot tells you basically nothing per se, it simple makes some people aware that the information of visiting a site exists and it is public. So the question is not about the bot, the question is if when you do thishttps://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&ta... and you can read that it's public that for example I was attached on fawiki on 21:41, 11 April 2012, which is basically when I visited it the first time. Although not strictly, I could have visited it and the system having problem and log me out (that also happen) so technically this is not even true sometimes... But even if it was precise, is the public knowledge of this information really a threat to my privacy? or it is justing many of the things I implicitly agree when I make an account? The "violation of privacy" of such information, it's not even comparable with dozen of other things in your life. But seriously if THIS is a problem and had to be "put secret" than I'd expect to be informed when a check user look at my data. You know.... a few group of people decide when it's right or wrong to look at my personal data and not informing me when they do it probably because they found nothing (but they have such information in their hand now, don't they? Shouldn't I generic user be informed about it?), that's not very nice for the privacy of anyone. So the core point is not that I receive a message once a year that makes me aware that the SUL information exist, but that I don't receive a lot of other messages that I should receiving about who's looking at many others of my personal data. Privacy is a serious matter. I expect RfC for things that have impact. Now imagine that I go to people that are worried and tell them the nobody really cares that they are not informed when someone look inside their provider data (because put in the end of a small group of people is "enough") or that the disaggregated information of CU activity is not public for the majority of platforms... but someone cares so much if they receive a welcoming message by bot when they visit a platform for the first time. I am quite sure that the users I know will not be impressed.
Il Venerdì 26 Gennaio 2018 0:27, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com ha scritto:
I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself.
The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account. This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site. This is probably not intended and not acceptable.
I wonder if the solution is to filter down the new users to real contributors, that would be pretty simple
Den tor. 25. jan. 2018, 22.55 skrev Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Joe,
I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue should have been reviewed within days, not weeks. I disagree with the statement that "A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am sure you can understand Pine." If anything, I think that the situation is clear to the contrary and it should have been reviewed within days.
For me, an RfC about this matter would be for the purposes of (1) encouraging WMF to give more attention to this matter, (2) attempting to establish community consensus about whether the matters being raised here involve privacy violations, and (3) what should be done, if anything. Personally, I think that the status quo does involve privacy violations and that there should be changes. Whether that view is shared by others is something that the RfC would attempt to measure.
In this circumstance I consider RfC to be similar to a ballot measure, and I think that it's appropriate for me to say that if I think that there are problems then I may use tools that are available to me to attempt to address them, preferably with WMF's cooperation, but without WMF"s cooperation if necessary and if possible.
John,
A previous discussion about the privacy issues occurred in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42006. I received a new email from WMF Legal in which they affirmed their department's 2012 view on this matter. The most recent email gave me the impression that they are receptive to discussion about whether there should be changes although there may be resource limitations. That sounds like a good starting place for a conversation, and I think that on the community's side an RfC is the best way to gauge the community's views. I am busy for the next few days but I'll try to set up an RfC on Meta during the weekend.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are
in
the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their
annual
all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal staff have a lot on their plate.
This problem has been discussed before and reviewed by legal as
acceptable.
A subsequent review is clearly going to be a low priority task as I am
sure
you can understand Pine.
Making threats to handle ones demand and only in a manner that is acceptable to you is hardly going to make staff receptive to expediting your request. Lets give the good people time, afford them patience on our behalf and let them do their jobs.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 2:04 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about
this
matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there
may
be
others who have opened their own lines of inquiry.
If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory,
or
if I don't receive one at all, then I plan to set up an RfC about this matter.
Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CatherineMunro/Bright_Places
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock
this
IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users.
Vito
2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am
pinging
Legal to request a review of this matter.
Happy new year,
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- Seddon
*Community and Audience Engagement Associate* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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I'm surprised that this whole thing is even an issue at this late date. Considering the importance to the projects of recruiting and retaining contrbutors, how is it possible to be in a position where the various projects do not have a comprehensive understanding of, and well-researched evidence-based policies for, welcoming new contributors, and efficient and effective tools in place to implement those policies? Indeed, why were these things not all sorted out at least a decade ago?
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Possibly because they have been busy with other things? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Renée Bagslint Sent: 01 January 2018 00:10 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki
I'm surprised that this whole thing is even an issue at this late date. Considering the importance to the projects of recruiting and retaining contrbutors, how is it possible to be in a position where the various projects do not have a comprehensive understanding of, and well-researched evidence-based policies for, welcoming new contributors, and efficient and effective tools in place to implement those policies? Indeed, why were these things not all sorted out at least a decade ago?
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1]
I suspect the bot is welcoming every user it can find, but using user accounts from central login and not users that has local contributions at arwiki.
Can someone shut down the bot until the user fix the spam problem.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#Welcome_messages _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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