I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
The WMF already handles the legal responsibilities of a US chapter (it administers the trademarks etc.). With a "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator" we can also have an organizational capacity among the different affiliates (the on-the-ground groups) around the country.
I would be happy to report to Cary from New York, and hopefully Andrew could report to him from Pennsylvania, and Dan from DC etc.
Cary could also have the responsibility of collating votes from the different affiliates in US Wikimedians' say toward the chapter seats on the Board.
(I haven't contacted Cary about this yet, but I am hopeful he would be warm to the idea.)
Thanks, Pharos
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
It could work. There is the concern that there could be a perceived inequality between countries if the WMF plays a significant role in only one country's "chapter" - I'm not sure if that would be a serious problem or not.
While I have no doubt that Cary can do this, and would in fact do very well at it...
Don't we have a Chapters Coordinator on staff to...you know, coordinate chapters? I might be missing something, but this would fall under that job description, I think.
(Also, might remove some misconceptions that US chapters are getting special treatment by having a "US Coordinator")
-Chad
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
It could work. There is the concern that there could be a perceived inequality between countries if the WMF plays a significant role in only one country's "chapter" - I'm not sure if that would be a serious problem or not.
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Don't we have a Chapters Coordinator on staff to...you know, coordinate chapters? I might be missing something, but this would fall under that job description, I think.
We do, but it's a part time job and Delphine isn't based in the US, so Cary may be better suited.
Chad wrote:
While I have no doubt that Cary can do this, and would in fact do very well at it...
/me vaguely tries figuring Sue learning from the list that the job description and title of one of her staff member has changed overnight...
Don't we have a Chapters Coordinator on staff to...you know, coordinate chapters? I might be missing something, but this would fall under that job description, I think.
(Also, might remove some misconceptions that US chapters are getting special treatment by having a "US Coordinator")
-Chad
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
It could work. There is the concern that there could be a perceived inequality between countries if the WMF plays a significant role in only one country's "chapter" - I'm not sure if that would be a serious problem or not.
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On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask: Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for that.
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask: Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for that.
Seconded.
2008/5/3, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask: Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for that.
Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural and legal differences with Europe then the US...
BR, Lodewijk
I humbly suggests Russians may have a different view of differences between Russia and Europe, specially when they are of Europe Russia, but besides this corner-picking, you make a good point.
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:08 PM, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/3, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com:
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask: Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for that.
Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural and legal differences with Europe then the US...
BR, Lodewijk
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I humbly suggests Russians may have a different view of differences between Russia and Europe, specially when they are of Europe Russia, but besides this corner-picking, you make a good point.
Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural and legal differences with Europe then the US...
BR, Lodewijk
Well, we do have a different view of the matter.
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 8:08 AM, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural and legal differences with Europe then the US...
The WMF is effectively legally managing the role of a "US chapter" already, by administering all of the trademarks in this country, etc.
I believe it would be appropriate to them to manage a "virtual chapter" also, under the person of a "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", which would represent the various Wikimedians active on-the-ground.
Possibly in the very long term "Wikimedia US" might be incorporated separately, but it would seem like a great waste of energies to establish a whole separate organization at this point.
Thanks, Pharos
2008/5/4, Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 8:08 AM, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural and legal differences with Europe then the US...
The WMF is effectively legally managing the role of a "US chapter" already, by administering all of the trademarks in this country, etc.
I believe it would be appropriate to them to manage a "virtual chapter" also, under the person of a "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", which would represent the various Wikimedians active on-the-ground.
Possibly in the very long term "Wikimedia US" might be incorporated separately, but it would seem like a great waste of energies to establish a whole separate organization at this point.
Thanks,
Pharos
As long as there is no board, nor membership structure etc, I have a hard time seeing a group of volunteers as a chapter, even a virtual one. Of course personally I would be supportive to create such structures, but as they're not there yet, let's try to stick with the common definitions :)
What you seem to mean to me, is a group of enthusiast volunteers who want to do stuff. Yeah, the Volunteer Coordinator (Cary) might be a good point of approach then. And maybe in some cases (conferences, Wikipedia academies) the guy who is handling reachout (Frank). But the same goes for enthusiast volunteers in southern Spain, Zambia, Nepal or New Zealand. They would have to approach the same people for the same things, and I still do not see why US volunteers should take a different position on this. They are not more important, at most higher in number (although that would have to proof itself first).
As soon as there are legal entities (or at least groups with formalized structures) in the US, incorporated or not, I guess their point of approach would be the chapters coordinator (Delphine) / chapters committee . As long as you're not, I think that the regular current structures should be sufficient (because you're no "affiliate" anyways)..
BR, Lodewijk
effe iets anders wrote:
What you seem to mean to me, is a group of enthusiast volunteers who want to do stuff. Yeah, the Volunteer Coordinator (Cary) might be a good point of approach then. And maybe in some cases (conferences, Wikipedia academies) the guy who is handling reachout (Frank). But the same goes for enthusiast volunteers in southern Spain, Zambia, Nepal or New Zealand. They would have to approach the same people for the same things, and I still do not see why US volunteers should take a different position on this. They are not more important, at most higher in number (although that would have to proof itself first).
As soon as there are legal entities (or at least groups with formalized structures) in the US, incorporated or not, I guess their point of approach would be the chapters coordinator (Delphine) / chapters committee . As long as you're not, I think that the regular current structures should be sufficient (because you're no "affiliate" anyways)..
BR, Lodewijk
Effe's correct.
Delphine is the point person for chapters, so if volunteers in the United States want to formally organize, she would be their contact for that. The fact that she's not in the United States doesn't/shouldn't matter - she's the chapters' global representative (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Argentina, Israel) and is used to working with people who are far from her geographically. There's no need for the United States to get any special treatment.
People who don't want to organize formally into chapters or chapter-like entities can continue to work with Cary, who is the point person for individual volunteers. So Pharos working with Cary for Wikipedia Takes Manhattan makes perfect sense :-)
I'm curious, and maybe this is the wrong thread, but can someone explain to me the difficulty in setting up a US organization that is essentially a Wikimedia membership chapter? I get the issues with trademark ownership (although it seems you could solve that with a license of some sort) and the issue of diverting donations, but what are the other impediments if any? I set up a non-profit corporation in high school, it didn't strike me as that difficult at the time.
If this has been discussed at length, as I'm sure it has, on meta - could I get the link as well?
thanks,
Nathan
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
effe iets anders wrote:
What you seem to mean to me, is a group of enthusiast volunteers who want to do stuff. Yeah, the Volunteer Coordinator (Cary) might be a good point of approach then. And maybe in some cases (conferences, Wikipedia academies) the guy who is handling reachout (Frank). But the same goes for enthusiast volunteers in southern Spain, Zambia, Nepal or New Zealand. They would have to approach the same people for the same things, and I still do not see why US volunteers should take a different position on this. They are not more important, at most higher in number (although that would have to proof itself first).
As soon as there are legal entities (or at least groups with formalized structures) in the US, incorporated or not, I guess their point of approach would be the chapters coordinator (Delphine) / chapters committee . As long as you're not, I think that the regular current structures should be sufficient (because you're no "affiliate" anyways)..
BR, Lodewijk
Effe's correct.
Delphine is the point person for chapters, so if volunteers in the United States want to formally organize, she would be their contact for that. The fact that she's not in the United States doesn't/shouldn't matter - she's the chapters' global representative (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Argentina, Israel) and is used to working with people who are far from her geographically. There's no need for the United States to get any special treatment.
People who don't want to organize formally into chapters or chapter-like entities can continue to work with Cary, who is the point person for individual volunteers. So Pharos working with Cary for Wikipedia Takes Manhattan makes perfect sense :-)
--
Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation
Your donations keep Wikipedia running! Support the Wikimedia Foundation today: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
I'm curious, and maybe this is the wrong thread, but can someone explain to me the difficulty in setting up a US organization that is essentially a Wikimedia membership chapter? I get the issues with trademark ownership (although it seems you could solve that with a license of some sort) and the issue of diverting donations, but what are the other impediments if any? I set up a non-profit corporation in high school, it didn't strike me as that difficult at the time.
If this has been discussed at length, as I'm sure it has, on meta - could I get the link as well?
Two links which filled me in on a lot of the background for this thread are:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_New_York_City/Chapters_Committee
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_New_York_City/Letter_to_Chapters_Co...
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Effe's correct. Delphine is the point person for chapters, so if volunteers in the United States want to formally organize, she would be their contact for that. The fact that she's not in the United States doesn't/shouldn't matter - she's the chapters' global representative (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Argentina, Israel) and is used to working with people who are far from her geographically. There's no need for the United States to get any special treatment.
I first entered contact with Delphine on these issues several months ago. She does not appear to be unsympathetic to these ideas.
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
I think that Pharos' approach, ahving the WMFoundation dedicate specific resources to a "US local chapter" (which by the way, does not have to operate US wide, but could just be the point of communication of more regional chapters) actually makes sense, and it is definitely one approach I am going to take into consideration, among others.
We have a situation where the US, because of its population distribution, is ripe for regional affiliates. Other countries may be similar, and there may be a desire, for say, a "Wikimedia Canada Affiliates Coordinator", appointed by a future Wikimedia Canada. But the WMF is the non-profit responsible for Wikimedia in the US, and fulfills the role of 'de facto' chapter here, and so I think would be the appropriate entity to designate an "Affiliates Coordinator" for this country.
The WMF also has a unique role vis-a-vis US groups in that it has the capacity to grant them a "Group Exemption Letter", conferring non-profit status on a related organization. It is not possible to do this for groups in other countries.
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
People who don't want to organize formally into chapters or chapter-like entities can continue to work with Cary, who is the point person for individual volunteers. So Pharos working with Cary for Wikipedia Takes Manhattan makes perfect sense :-)
We do wish to organize formally; we just don't wish to register as many separate non-profits. We would be organized in a manner legally identical to local chapters of the American Red Cross.
Thanks, Pharos
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
2008/5/2 Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask: Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for that.
Cary Bass is effectively already serving in this capacity. When we held "Wikipedia Takes Manhattan", I went to him for approval and advice, because well, there is noone else in the WMF who has this job.
Being "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator" would just formalize this position, and this formalization should not require too much extra energies to be expended in the near term, when the US Affiliates are currently in an embryonic stage of development. In 1-2 years time, I would fully expect the situation to be reassessed, and the position possibly fall to another staff member or qualified volunteer who could devote more time to it.
If Sue or the Board know of another person for this role, that would be fine, but Cary would certainly seem the most obviously qualified candidate.
Thanks, Pharos
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
(O.O)
- -- Cary Bass Volunteer Coordinator
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Cary Bass cbass@wikimedia.org wrote:
(O.O)
I suggested to Pharos that you wouldn't mind the increase in job responsibilities if it came with a comparable increase in salary :)
--Andrew Whitworth
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com wrote:
I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the WMF.
I'd like to table this specific idea for now. It was built on the presumption that a "group exemption" would necessitate much closer cooperation of US chapters with the WMF.
But it appears now that we can have easy non-profit status with a 508(c)(1)(b), as long as our budget is $5,000 or less. I don't see us having a large budget for at least the first year or two, so this should be OK, and maybe we can apply for a "group exemption" when we are a more established organization.
There still may be a role for a "virtual chapter" to coordinate US regional chapters, but perhaps nothing so directly top-down as this proposal.
Thanks, Pharos
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.com wrote:
But it appears now that we can have easy non-profit status with a 508(c)(1)(b), as long as our budget is $5,000 or less.
To clarify a bit, you'd still have to qualify for exemption under 501(c)(3), just not required to get an advance determination letter. You'd also be required to file a 990-N each year (don't worry though, the IRS calls that an e-postcard and estimates that it takes 15 minutes to fill out). And you'd have to pass the public support test. Private foundations are not eligible for this provision. Also, the WMF might not approve any chapters which haven't received a determination letter. Although, if this is the only sticking point hopefully they'd at least be willing to pay for obtaining it. I can talk to you privately with more information, I've probably already said too much for a public mailing list. So let me add that ***Nothing in this email (or any of my previous ones) is intended or written to be used, and it cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer.***
There still may be a role for a "virtual chapter" to coordinate US regional chapters, but perhaps nothing so directly top-down as this proposal.
If you want top-down, get me 10-15 people or more who will all agree to work together under my direction, and I'll give you an incorporated entity with bylaws and a 501(c)(3) determination letter. Getting the Foundation to approve this entity as a chapter is then up to someone else. Or, if you think having my name on it will jinx the whole thing, name someone else the leader and let me use him/her as my sockpuppet.
Alternatively, wait until Wikimedia Pennsylvania gets finished and then follow their lead. I'm guessing that'll be relatively soon, but maybe I'm wrong.
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