On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
In general please consider not to endorse commercial and closed source software as primary communication channel. It is also bad in terms of usability and intensity/velocity of exchanges in conditions and context of massive cross-zone/cross-cultural event organizing. Likely to be a cute looking mess and info bottleneck. I already have multiple Wikimedia Telegram groups that hard to follow and take more personal energy then they should at these times of pandemic. Please re-consider this!
My arguments are presented on the Telegram group itself and your meta page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Tra...
In Solidarity and with Care ~Zblace
*As a queer person without western privileges I can recommend its limited use due to phone number privacy and I do also use it myself but it should be neither only nor first option.
I want to add a funny story. When I used to live in Iran, I couldn't join any of Wikimedia telegram groups (including three or four wikimedia hackathons when I was participating in them) because my phone number had country code of Iran (duh) and Telegram banned users being able to join large groups for the whole country of Iran on the grounds that lots of spammers are from Iran which is true. I don't know if it's still the case or not but this is one of privileges people have and might not notice it (not to mention the racist behavior of Telegram).
If I can shamelessly promote my project, you can use Wikimedia Chat instead: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chat ( https://diff.wikimedia.org/2020/09/18/introducing-wikimedia-chat/)
Best
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 12:09 PM Željko Blaće zblace@mi2.hr wrote:
On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
In general please consider not to endorse commercial and closed source software as primary communication channel. It is also bad in terms of usability and intensity/velocity of exchanges in conditions and context of massive cross-zone/cross-cultural event organizing. Likely to be a cute looking mess and info bottleneck. I already have multiple Wikimedia Telegram groups that hard to follow and take more personal energy then they should at these times of pandemic. Please re-consider this!
My arguments are presented on the Telegram group itself and your meta page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Tra...
In Solidarity and with Care ~Zblace
*As a queer person without western privileges I can recommend its limited use due to phone number privacy and I do also use it myself but it should be neither only nor first option.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Thanks for highlighting the issues of access from different countries.
Being in the UK, I would never have used Telegram apart from Wikimedia demands, as hardly anyone uses it here. Popularity, accessibility, reliability, are highly variable for the different channel technologies we use. These are also extremely good reasons not to jump to one method, but to ensure our larger events support multiple channels including our oldest or old fashioned like IRC and email. Running editathons with a live dashboard or mash-up of IRC, a twitter hashtag or FB messenger has worked reasonably well to engage remote participants and to supplement videoconferencing. It's also essential to encourage folks planning to participate to *test* their access, preferably by supporting a dry-run session. One thing we can count on is webcams and mics to fail, wifi access to become spotty, or for websites to crash and that's when old methods suddenly look like good options.
I guess we can agree a solid recommendation is to aim to support two or three channels when the group gets above 4 or 5 participants, even if some, like IRC, are considered back-ups.
P.S. as a community we should seek to keep testing out open-source alternates, folx get comfortable with what they know works on their machines but most of us are happy to support experimenting with alternatives, it does not hurt to keep on suggesting them.
Fae
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 11:22, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
I want to add a funny story. When I used to live in Iran, I couldn't join any of Wikimedia telegram groups (including three or four wikimedia hackathons when I was participating in them) because my phone number had country code of Iran (duh) and Telegram banned users being able to join large groups for the whole country of Iran on the grounds that lots of spammers are from Iran which is true. I don't know if it's still the case or not but this is one of privileges people have and might not notice it (not to mention the racist behavior of Telegram).
If I can shamelessly promote my project, you can use Wikimedia Chat instead: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chat (https://diff.wikimedia.org/2020/09/18/introducing-wikimedia-chat/)
Best
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 12:09 PM Željko Blaće zblace@mi2.hr wrote:
On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
In general please consider not to endorse commercial and closed source software as primary communication channel. It is also bad in terms of usability and intensity/velocity of exchanges in conditions and context of massive cross-zone/cross-cultural event organizing. Likely to be a cute looking mess and info bottleneck. I already have multiple Wikimedia Telegram groups that hard to follow and take more personal energy then they should at these times of pandemic. Please re-consider this!
My arguments are presented on the Telegram group itself and your meta page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Tra...
In Solidarity and with Care ~Zblace
*As a queer person without western privileges I can recommend its limited use due to phone number privacy and I do also use it myself but it should be neither only nor first option.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Amir (he/him)
Dear all,
For those interested, we are now testing a wikimedia chat channel for movement strategy and see how well it will be received and utilized. You can join us at: https://chat.wmcloud.org/wikimedia/channels/movement-strategy
Thank you for your kind attention! Kaarel
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 1:54 PM Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for highlighting the issues of access from different countries.
Being in the UK, I would never have used Telegram apart from Wikimedia demands, as hardly anyone uses it here. Popularity, accessibility, reliability, are highly variable for the different channel technologies we use. These are also extremely good reasons not to jump to one method, but to ensure our larger events support multiple channels including our oldest or old fashioned like IRC and email. Running editathons with a live dashboard or mash-up of IRC, a twitter hashtag or FB messenger has worked reasonably well to engage remote participants and to supplement videoconferencing. It's also essential to encourage folks planning to participate to *test* their access, preferably by supporting a dry-run session. One thing we can count on is webcams and mics to fail, wifi access to become spotty, or for websites to crash and that's when old methods suddenly look like good options.
I guess we can agree a solid recommendation is to aim to support two or three channels when the group gets above 4 or 5 participants, even if some, like IRC, are considered back-ups.
P.S. as a community we should seek to keep testing out open-source alternates, folx get comfortable with what they know works on their machines but most of us are happy to support experimenting with alternatives, it does not hurt to keep on suggesting them.
Fae
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 11:22, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
I want to add a funny story. When I used to live in Iran, I couldn't
join any of Wikimedia telegram groups (including three or four wikimedia hackathons when I was participating in them) because my phone number had country code of Iran (duh) and Telegram banned users being able to join large groups for the whole country of Iran on the grounds that lots of spammers are from Iran which is true. I don't know if it's still the case or not but this is one of privileges people have and might not notice it (not to mention the racist behavior of Telegram).
If I can shamelessly promote my project, you can use Wikimedia Chat
instead: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chat ( https://diff.wikimedia.org/2020/09/18/introducing-wikimedia-chat/)
Best
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 12:09 PM Željko Blaće zblace@mi2.hr wrote:
On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
In general please consider not to endorse commercial and closed source software as primary communication channel. It is also bad in terms of usability and intensity/velocity of exchanges in conditions and context of massive cross-zone/cross-cultural event organizing. Likely to be a cute looking mess and info bottleneck. I already have multiple Wikimedia Telegram groups that hard to follow and take more personal energy then they should at these times of pandemic. Please re-consider this!
My arguments are presented on the Telegram group itself and your meta page
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Tra...
In Solidarity and with Care ~Zblace
*As a queer person without western privileges I can recommend its limited use due to phone number privacy and I do also use it myself but it should be neither only nor first option.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: Personal and confidential,
please do not circulate or re-quote. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Amir (he/him)
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hello, I am glad to see the channel on Wikimedia Chat/WMChat. Thanks Tito Dutta
শনি, ২৪ অক্টোবর, ২০২০ তারিখে ২:৩৬ AM টায় এ Kaarel Vaidla < kvaidla@wikimedia.org> লিখেছেন:
Dear all,
For those interested, we are now testing a wikimedia chat channel for movement strategy and see how well it will be received and utilized. You can join us at: https://chat.wmcloud.org/wikimedia/channels/movement-strategy
Thank you for your kind attention! Kaarel
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 1:54 PM Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for highlighting the issues of access from different countries.
Being in the UK, I would never have used Telegram apart from Wikimedia demands, as hardly anyone uses it here. Popularity, accessibility, reliability, are highly variable for the different channel technologies we use. These are also extremely good reasons not to jump to one method, but to ensure our larger events support multiple channels including our oldest or old fashioned like IRC and email. Running editathons with a live dashboard or mash-up of IRC, a twitter hashtag or FB messenger has worked reasonably well to engage remote participants and to supplement videoconferencing. It's also essential to encourage folks planning to participate to *test* their access, preferably by supporting a dry-run session. One thing we can count on is webcams and mics to fail, wifi access to become spotty, or for websites to crash and that's when old methods suddenly look like good options.
I guess we can agree a solid recommendation is to aim to support two or three channels when the group gets above 4 or 5 participants, even if some, like IRC, are considered back-ups.
P.S. as a community we should seek to keep testing out open-source alternates, folx get comfortable with what they know works on their machines but most of us are happy to support experimenting with alternatives, it does not hurt to keep on suggesting them.
Fae
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 11:22, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
I want to add a funny story. When I used to live in Iran, I couldn't
join any of Wikimedia telegram groups (including three or four wikimedia hackathons when I was participating in them) because my phone number had country code of Iran (duh) and Telegram banned users being able to join large groups for the whole country of Iran on the grounds that lots of spammers are from Iran which is true. I don't know if it's still the case or not but this is one of privileges people have and might not notice it (not to mention the racist behavior of Telegram).
If I can shamelessly promote my project, you can use Wikimedia Chat
instead: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chat ( https://diff.wikimedia.org/2020/09/18/introducing-wikimedia-chat/)
Best
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 12:09 PM Željko Blaće zblace@mi2.hr wrote:
On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
In general please consider not to endorse commercial and closed source software as primary communication channel. It is also bad in terms of usability and intensity/velocity of exchanges in conditions and context of massive cross-zone/cross-cultural event organizing. Likely to be a cute looking mess and info bottleneck. I already have multiple Wikimedia Telegram groups that hard to follow and take more personal energy then they should at these times of pandemic. Please re-consider this!
My arguments are presented on the Telegram group itself and your meta page
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Tra...
In Solidarity and with Care ~Zblace
*As a queer person without western privileges I can recommend its limited use due to phone number privacy and I do also use it myself but it should be neither only nor first option.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: Personal and confidential,
please do not circulate or re-quote. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Amir (he/him)
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
--
Kaarel Vaidla (he/him)
Movement Strategy https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/2030
Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On 23/10/2020 11:43, Željko Blaće wrote:
On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
Thank you for that, anyways there is also to consider the freedom of choice that, beside everything, is a freedom.
Anyways some communities experimented the possibility to integrate open source chat (i.e, an IRC channel) and a Telegram channel to have messages on both sides.
In this case the freedom of choice is kept "free" and there is no obstacles to use one or another solution because at the end the goal is the participation.
Kind regards
Dear Željko, Amir and Ilario,
Thank you so much for raising this point, which is well aligned with the spirit of the movement strategy in general and participant user experience in particular.
With the transition support team we are thoughtful regarding the tools and platforms we use to ensure access to the conversations and at the same time support participants to stay on top of different content streams. We understand that *how* we have the discussions in the transition from recommendations to implementation is in some cases as important as the content of the discussions. As a result, we take the feedback provided on the how part seriously.
The choice of Telegram chat was made based on the feedback and request from a number of people engaged in the movement strategy conversations. It is a balancing act of meeting the people where they are (Telegram being one of the most popular instant connecting tools in the movement, somewhat depending on the region), providing a space where we can support more informal and free-flowing conversations (that our wiki discussion pages cannot really provide) and at the same time trying to build structure in the conversations and ensuring people do not get lost in the stream of information. We prioritized the factor of meeting the people where they are and have chosen Telegram based on that. Based on the feedback received, we will look into integrating multiple channels to increase access options (as Ilario suggests) and also look into added value of Wikimedia chat (there is a discussion about this in our Telegram channel). We will discuss it with the team, get back to interested community members if we have questions and then adapt our approach accordingly.
Thank you again for proactive approach in trying to make the movement strategy conversations experience better! I truly love the passion of Wikimedians about such things.
Take care and have a great end of the week! Kaarel
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 1:35 PM Ilario valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
On 23/10/2020 11:43, Željko Blaće wrote:
On 10/22/20, Kaarel Vaidla kvaidla@wikimedia.org wrote:
How to participate
...
- Join our Telegram group [2].
It would be amazing if we could embody the values of movement strategy whenever we can. Using only Telegram group as recommendation is NOT*.
Thank you for that, anyways there is also to consider the freedom of choice that, beside everything, is a freedom.
Anyways some communities experimented the possibility to integrate open source chat (i.e, an IRC channel) and a Telegram channel to have messages on both sides.
In this case the freedom of choice is kept "free" and there is no obstacles to use one or another solution because at the end the goal is the participation.
Kind regards
--
Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario Skype: valdelli Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org