Pedro Sanchez wrote on Thu Feb 8 20:23:36 UTC 2007:
I'll try to reword Gregory's argument since I think it's still not clear to you (and for what I see, most it: people).
- On italy, you're allowed to publish with permission but not under fair use.
- So you can upload if you get permission
- Once the file has been uploaded in italy with permission, USA
people can access it
- Should the cirterion met, USA people can reuse the content under
fair use (since there,
fair use applies no matter what the licencing terms are (permission or not))
therefore he's suggesting you to tag your images with the text
- This image has been published in Italy with permission (not under
nonexistent "italy fair
use")
- This image *could* be used on some other countries as fair use
where those countries
law allow it
Am I right greg? Did I explain it correctly?
Yes, although I should make sure to be really clear. (2) is only okay if (4) would be possible. The reason for this is that we want the material submitted to itwikis to be maximally free in the rest of the world. Itwiki is used far outside of Italy... Even 15% of its edits come from outside Italy.
We don't care about only the US, we also care about the whole world.. Countries that I believe have explicit law similar in intent to fair use include Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Germany, Hungary, Japan, Poland, Sweeden, United Kingdom.. and pretty much every place that was at one point a UK holding. Of course, it's also the case that it exists in Italian law too, but people here are insisting that it only applies to text. This doesn't appear to be the case to me, but I will not argue.
I think that is far too much smoke here for such a small amount of fire. On itwiki the images impacted by this seem to be mostly tagged with {{Copyrighted}}. If we look at the whatlinkshere (http://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciale:PuntanoQui/Template:Copyr...) we find that there are less than 2,000 images in this state. Is all this concern from itwiki really just about 2,000 images or are there several other templates that I am missing?
In any case, if you go through these images you will find many images that anyone could take, public buildings and such. You will also find many images created by Italian Wikipedians who are deciding to not release their work under a free license. This is a terrible thing, and it's deeply troubling that anyone thought that these images were ever okay.
Il giorno 09/feb/07, alle ore 00:15, Gregory Maxwell ha scritto:
Yes, although I should make sure to be really clear. (2) is only okay if (4) would be possible. The reason for this is that we want the material submitted to itwikis to be maximally free in the rest of the world.
That's silly. Fair use is not maximally free "in the rest of the world". Fair use is "maximally free" only in such countries where fair use/fair dealing exist. Which are...? United States, UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, India... Commonwealth?
But not in Czech. Nor in Nederlands. And the other countries? Why are you talking "for the rest of the world" is fair use is usable only by fair-use-countries? Are you fooling us?
We don't care about only the US, we also care about the whole world..
Again.
Countries that I believe have explicit law similar in intent to fair use include Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Germany, Hungary, Japan, Poland, Sweeden, United Kingdom.. and pretty much every place that was at one point a UK holding.
Again.
Of course, it's also the case that it exists in Italian law too, but people here are insisting that it only applies to text. This doesn't appear to be the case to me, but I will not argue.
Again, you're stating that you understand italian laws better than italian people. Are you crazy or what? Who do you think you are? Sorry Mister, but I and "people who are insisting" MAYBE know our laws better than you.
Gatto Nero
2007/2/9, Claudio Mastroianni gattonero@gmail.com:
Il giorno 09/feb/07, alle ore 00:15, Gregory Maxwell ha scritto:
Yes, although I should make sure to be really clear. (2) is only okay if (4) would be possible. The reason for this is that we want the material submitted to itwikis to be maximally free in the rest of the world.
That's silly. Fair use is not maximally free "in the rest of the world". Fair use is "maximally free" only in such countries where fair use/fair dealing exist. Which are...? United States, UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, India... Commonwealth?
But not in Czech. Nor in Nederlands. And the other countries? Why are you talking "for the rest of the world" is fair use is usable only by fair-use-countries?
I don't know about the Czech Republic or Italy, but I'm quite surprised that you mention the Netherlands here. Perhaps it is because Dutch Wikipedians tend to loudly proclaim there is no concept of fair use in the Netherlands. And they're right. However, the Netherlands do have a 'right to citation' (or however it is called in English), and at least some of the fair use cases under discussion here would be well within the Dutch citation paragraph - it even *explicitly* says that for photographs and drawings, showing the whole work can be an allowed citation (under certain conditions, one of which is that the copy is 'in size or manner of production' has a clear difference with the original work).
Somehow the nl: community seems to accept that this state exists, but not that we can use it. "Fair use does not exist in the Netherlands, so we cannot use fair use images" is what is always said. Although we don't have US style fair use, that doesn't mean any fair use is impossible, the rules are just different - usually stricter.
On 2/8/07, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
I think that is far too much smoke here for such a small amount of fire. On itwiki the images impacted by this seem to be mostly tagged with {{Copyrighted}}. If we look at the whatlinkshere ( http://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciale:PuntanoQui/Template:Copyr... ) we find that there are less than 2,000 images in this state. Is all this concern from itwiki really just about 2,000 images or are there several other templates that I am missing?
In any case, if you go through these images you will find many images that anyone could take, public buildings and such. You will also find many images created by Italian Wikipedians who are deciding to not release their work under a free license. This is a terrible thing, and it's deeply troubling that anyone thought that these images were ever okay.
I agree that we can get rid of the images for which a free alternative is possible. Of course there are people that think that commercial reuse of their work is evil, they'll cope with that. In http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Censimento_licenze_im... is a very recent analysis of the images present on it.wiki. It makes about 12-13k non-free images. This includes 4k coat of arms of Italian municipalities, which, independent of copyright, require the municipality permission for reuse. Plus, of course, many a user on it.wikiis really pissed that fair use won't be phased out.
Marco (Cruccone)
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