Hi Robert,
This becomes a bit confusing for me. I only posted on this list because Matthias pointed out the discussion that was going on this list. I do not at this moment see any reason to become an Wikimedia sister project. I don't even know what that means. What are the advantages? This also isn't really a project proposal. WikiKids isn't an project in the "development hell". It is up and running. Maybe this was the wrong place to post a message. Again, I only posted here to explain what WikiKids is. There already is a small community around WikiKids in the Netherlands. And it's growing. Also with people from Belgium (Flanders). Some closing remarks: WikiKids is currently running on Wikia-server as a part of the Kennisnet-wiki's. People involved with WikiKids are also very busy with life (mostly teachers and students) and also devote a great deal of time to WikiKids We are not involved with WikiJunior in the Netherlands. Thank you for explaining what you mean with "motivated leaders". Although I don't really understand what you mean with "owning an idea".
Gerard
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]Namens Robert Horning Verzonden: woensdag 30 mei 2007 4:35 Aan: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Onderwerp: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikikids
Gerard Dummer wrote:
Hi,
My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl. WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children. When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for children in the age of 8 - 13. Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years. There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in assigments 2) create a writing environment. This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans, webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect. But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a weakness as a strength. I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation. Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a "motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken? @Matthias Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an important role. Some are sysop. I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a class. Everyone can contribute that way.
Gerard Dummer www.wikikids.nl
This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas. This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects, and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like this contact this very list. I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two years, and I've seen these proposals come and go. Some have been successful and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have even become full Wikimedia sister projects. I've even been involved with some of that effort on a few different levels.
What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how hard you try. There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their own independent wiki server. The disadvantage of this is that the relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all. The advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page paper on that from my experience at this point. Perhaps I should for an upcoming Wikimania :)
To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here on this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen. If your goal here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that you are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation mailing list. I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time this is something that I too would like to developed further. I should also note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation. I would much more strongly recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for your effort.
The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior. And posting a message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume discussion forii. There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of the time. The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of comments on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank. The Dutch Wikibooks "Staff Lounge" (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project. I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem that perhaps should be corrected.
I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site.
Robert Horning
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Gerard Dummer wrote:
Hi Robert,
This becomes a bit confusing for me. I only posted on this list because Matthias pointed out the discussion that was going on this list. I do not at this moment see any reason to become an Wikimedia sister project. I don't even know what that means. What are the advantages? This also isn't really a project proposal. WikiKids isn't an project in the "development hell". It is up and running. Maybe this was the wrong place to post a message. Again, I only posted here to explain what WikiKids is. There already is a small community around WikiKids in the Netherlands. And it's growing. Also with people from Belgium (Flanders). Some closing remarks: WikiKids is currently running on Wikia-server as a part of the Kennisnet-wiki's. People involved with WikiKids are also very busy with life (mostly teachers and students) and also devote a great deal of time to WikiKids We are not involved with WikiJunior in the Netherlands. Thank you for explaining what you mean with "motivated leaders". Although I don't really understand what you mean with "owning an idea".
Gerard
That still doesn't explain http://www.wikijunior.nl/
The point about suggesting that this could be a "sister project" is that a proposal was set up on Meta, with other projects where this is explicitly a goal. And that by posting on this list there is a presumption that somehow this is related to foundation business. I find it unfortunate that you are not working with the developers of the Dutch language edition of Wikijunior, but that is your loss and it is also something that I hope can be corrected.
As far as "owning an idea", I've seen some project proposals on Meta that get some criticism and the person who made the original proposal gets offended personally for what are stark realities of becoming a Wikimedia sister project. In spite of the fact that the proposal has been made on a wiki, they don't like people messing with the wording of the proposal and making modifications or suggesting alternatives to making the project work out. Or to join forces with people having a similar idea. Instead, they push the concept as though it is their chance to become a "God-King" of their own little domain with visions of grandure of becoming the next version of Jimbo Wales (nothing personal against you on this Jimbo, I'm just saying people getting dillusional about becoming like how you may be perceived).
And I'm not trying to say that your project is a bad idea... far from it. I think it is some amazing stuff you have put together.
Robert Horning
Hi,
Robert Horning a écrit :
The point about suggesting that this could be a "sister project" is that a proposal was set up on Meta, with other projects where this is explicitly a goal. And that by posting on this list there is a presumption that somehow this is related to foundation business.
The original proposal were made by User:Necrophorus, who is a german wikipedian, on 18 December 2004 see: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=84922 So I don't thing that the dutch group that created WikiKids.nl is directly related to this proposal. They just took the same name one year later (which I beleive was not a trademark yet !)
I find it unfortunate that you are not working with the developers of the Dutch language edition of Wikijunior, but that is your loss and it is also something that I hope can be corrected.
As far as "owning an idea", I've seen some project proposals on Meta that get some criticism and the person who made the original proposal gets offended personally for what are stark realities of becoming a Wikimedia sister project. In spite of the fact that the proposal has been made on a wiki, they don't like people messing with the wording of the proposal and making modifications or suggesting alternatives to making the project work out. Or to join forces with people having a similar idea.
Well, sorry for not modifying the proposal into just help and contribute to Wikijunior ! We tried to explain how it was different (both format and participants) and I'm not sure that the wikijunior community would have liked to somehow change their project. Maybe I shouldn't have criticised Wikijunior and Simple english Wikipedia but...
Instead, they push the concept as though it is their chance to become a "God-King" of their own little domain with visions of grandure of (...)
If you don't want "approval" from the WMF, but are here to merely advertise your project,
That's not really fair either, several if not many people have thought about a children wiki, and quite in a similar way. Why wouldn't you assume that it's just in the "Be bold" and "SOFIXIT" policy to make the proposal ? It was also about giving news from the ones that work if one reason why the former proposal as sister project didn't take off was "I'm not sure it can work"
One of the significant advantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project is that you have some people who can help out to deal with some of these growing pains and help with both administrative overhead and establishing basic policies that seem to work.
The advantage I see is of course that it would make it more "visible", at least for wikipedians, and that they would trust and know where they are going if they choose to contribute. The argument of limited ressourses is IMHO not relevant, as far as contributors are concerned. en.wikipedia had about 150.000 articles when simple english was launched, I guess it didn't slow down its growth, and 10 other ones are over this number now. Another thing is that if (ever) a wikikids project is open by the WMF, it's more likely to swarm (I mean make a new "colony") from the Wikipedias than from the Wikijuniors. Wikipedians would make the core of first contributors, and then could "recruit" people (especialy young people of course) that wouldn't have edit any wiki before. That's what happen on Vikidia.
Of course they could be some reasons such as not to engage into something that could be nearly a school pedagogical tool (that's how Wikikids.nl see it if I know well), if one think that it should be a matter for teachers, or not to deal with minor-related issues, or some other reasons I don't know.
It seems me probable that encyclopedic wikis for children in other language will open, but I actually have no fixed opinion on if the WMF should endorse them. It just would probably be the fastest way for them to be launched.
Anyway you will say I take for granted that it would be successful if launched. Everyone can have his opinion about this.
(hope my English will not be misunderstood) Mathias Damour
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