Wikimedia is nothing more than “Lord of the Flies” The foundation, Jimmy Wales and trust and safety does nothing about it ! with abusive administrators out of control; As an nubile and an IP. i went to the village pump for help, and that person took over the whole thing, and all i was doing is putting in references, then every thing i did after that was wrong, i went to administrators for help, and after a discussion which they called an instrution was blocked for a year as i dared them to shut me up on my own talk page one of them blocked that to, which stopped me from asking for a unblock review by a neutral party or contact the arbitration committee , when I put an unblock template on the wrong wiki.they blocked that wiki first, then somebody came along, with no warning or why they put the IP on a global . when I went to trust and safety they refused to talk to me. all this just for trying to talk (explain) there is no free speech on Wikipedia . From: Strainu Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 2:40 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI We don't, at least not at community level. At most, we fight for individual cases which are worth it (e.g. PR people that seem willing to learn). This got us some half-decent articles about companies. From: Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 10:07 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI Some established users have the habit of reverting every edit by IPs and newbies in the articles they watch - often with the special reversion tool - no mater the content and value of the edition. That is a very consistent behavior I've been observing over more than one decade at the Wikipedia in Portuguese, and the newbie edit only stays if another established user notices the reversion, and reverts it back. Meaning: One established user has to risk potential conflict with those other established users to reinstate the newbie edition - with the result that many simply staying away from that and leaving the IP/Newbie to its fate.
It's against the community rules, but pretty much nobody seems to care - meaning: it's not really against the will of the community.
The general result is a very poor experience for everyone using IPs; and slightly better (or less bad) for registered newbies, but still quite hostile.
Best, Paulo Martijn Hoekstra < martijnhoekstra@gmail.com > escreveu no dia quinta, 27/02/2020 à(s) 16:41:
As a quick/rough data point I don't frequently edit wikipedia anymore, and when I do I never log in.
About 2/3 edits no further interactions happen. About 10% gets reverted, about 10% of the time I get a warning and the last 10% I get a welcome template.
On Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 15:52 Marshall Miller < marshall.h.miller@gmail.com > wrote:
Thanks for mentioning the WMF Growth team [1], Pine. This is a really interesting thread that has touched on much of what the team has been working on alongside the Czech, Korean, Arabic, and Vietnamese Wikipedia communities (and with the advice of people from many different
communities
along the way).
We've tried to base our approach in research on newcomers, which taught
us
that newcomers face three main types of challenges: technical,
conceptual,
and cultural [2]. For instance, the research tells us that the rules of the wiki are hard to learn, and that a negative first interaction can
cause
a newcomer to leave the wiki and not return -- but that a positive interaction, such as getting advice from a friendly editor, can cause
them
to stay.
Over the last year and a half, we have experimented on mid-size
Wikipedias
with features that promote good communication between new and experienced users [3], that help newcomers teach themselves [4], and that give newcomers easy tasks to do [5]. The goal is to build an experience for newcomers that helps them get on a positive track in their first days on the wiki, and want to stick around to join their communities. It's possible that what we've learned and built so far will apply differently
to
the largest Wikipedias.
I hope that anyone who is interested in newcomers can tell us about their own experiences and ideas on our team's discussion page [6], or on the discussion pages of any of our projects. It's very important to us that the things we build fit in with how communities work today. Over the
next
year, we're planning to expand the Growth features to more wikis, so we definitely want to talk to people who think the features might be a good fit for their wikis.
To keep informed about the Growth team, please subscribe to our
newsletter
[7].
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/New_Editor_Experiences [3]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_homepa...
[4] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Focus_on_help_desk [5]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_tasks
[6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Growth [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Newsletters
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:07 AM Vi to < vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com > wrote:
Not really, drawing practical advices/lessons (e.g. "differentiate
among
kinds of COIs") is the only sensible path towards solving issues. "Let's be kind" is close to a tautology.
Vito
My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an example. I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the incident concerned.
Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> Il giorno mer 26 feb 2020 alle ore 09:59 Andy Mabbett <
andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk > ha scritto:
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to < vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com > wrote:
Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies
I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources, but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice to do as a first change.
As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094 characters or 665 words.
How do other projects deal with such cases?
Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
I am not getting your point here. Could you try to explain more clearly. It would help if you used the correct words, or if you are do not know them, give the equivalent in your own language so we can get a meaningful translation. It is not even clear which Wikipedia you are complaining about. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 80hnhtv4agou--- via Wikimedia-l Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:37 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia is nothing more than “Lord of the Flies”,Re: Treatment of newbies with mild CoI
Wikimedia is nothing more than “Lord of the Flies”
The foundation, Jimmy Wales and trust and safety does nothing about it !
with abusive administrators out of control;
As an nubile and an IP.
i went to the village pump for help, and that person took over the whole thing,
and all i was doing is putting in references, then every thing i did after that was wrong,
i went to administrators for help, and after a discussion which they called an instrution was
blocked for a year as i dared them to shut me up on my own talk page one of them blocked
that to, which stopped me from asking for a unblock review by a neutral party or contact the
arbitration committee , when I put an unblock template on the wrong wiki.they blocked that
wiki first, then somebody came along, with no warning or why they put the IP on a global .
when I went to trust and safety they refused to talk to me. all this just for trying to talk (explain)
there is no free speech on Wikipedia .
From: Strainu Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 2:40 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI
We don't, at least not at community level. At most, we fight for individual cases which are worth it (e.g. PR people that seem willing to learn). This got us some half-decent articles about companies.
From: Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 10:07 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Treatment of newbies with mild CoI
Some established users have the habit of reverting every edit by IPs and newbies in the articles they watch - often with the special reversion tool - no mater the content and value of the edition. That is a very consistent behavior I've been observing over more than one decade at the Wikipedia in Portuguese, and the newbie edit only stays if another established user notices the reversion, and reverts it back. Meaning: One established user has to risk potential conflict with those other established users to reinstate the newbie edition - with the result that many simply staying away from that and leaving the IP/Newbie to its fate.
It's against the community rules, but pretty much nobody seems to care - meaning: it's not really against the will of the community.
The general result is a very poor experience for everyone using IPs; and slightly better (or less bad) for registered newbies, but still quite hostile.
Best, Paulo
Martijn Hoekstra < martijnhoekstra@gmail.com > escreveu no dia quinta, 27/02/2020 à(s) 16:41:
As a quick/rough data point I don't frequently edit wikipedia anymore, and when I do I never log in.
About 2/3 edits no further interactions happen. About 10% gets reverted, about 10% of the time I get a warning and the last 10% I get a welcome template.
On Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 15:52 Marshall Miller < marshall.h.miller@gmail.com > wrote:
Thanks for mentioning the WMF Growth team [1], Pine. This is a really interesting thread that has touched on much of what the team has been working on alongside the Czech, Korean, Arabic, and Vietnamese Wikipedia communities (and with the advice of people from many different
communities
along the way).
We've tried to base our approach in research on newcomers, which taught
us
that newcomers face three main types of challenges: technical,
conceptual,
and cultural [2]. For instance, the research tells us that the rules of the wiki are hard to learn, and that a negative first interaction can
cause
a newcomer to leave the wiki and not return -- but that a positive interaction, such as getting advice from a friendly editor, can cause
them
to stay.
Over the last year and a half, we have experimented on mid-size
Wikipedias
with features that promote good communication between new and experienced users [3], that help newcomers teach themselves [4], and that give newcomers easy tasks to do [5]. The goal is to build an experience for newcomers that helps them get on a positive track in their first days on the wiki, and want to stick around to join their communities. It's possible that what we've learned and built so far will apply differently
to
the largest Wikipedias.
I hope that anyone who is interested in newcomers can tell us about their own experiences and ideas on our team's discussion page [6], or on the discussion pages of any of our projects. It's very important to us that the things we build fit in with how communities work today. Over the
next
year, we're planning to expand the Growth features to more wikis, so we definitely want to talk to people who think the features might be a good fit for their wikis.
To keep informed about the Growth team, please subscribe to our
newsletter
[7].
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/New_Editor_Experiences [3]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_homepa...
[4] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Focus_on_help_desk [5]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Personalized_first_day/Newcomer_tasks
[6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Growth [7] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Growth/Newsletters
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:07 AM Vi to < vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com > wrote:
Not really, drawing practical advices/lessons (e.g. "differentiate
among
kinds of COIs") is the only sensible path towards solving issues. "Let's be kind" is close to a tautology.
Vito
My question was generic, and not about the specific case I gave as an example. I chose not to post links to to the example, both in order to avoid a pile-on, and to avoid us being distracted by the minutiae of the incident concerned.
Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> Il giorno mer 26 feb 2020 alle ore 09:59 Andy Mabbett <
andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk > ha scritto:
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 20:36, Vi to < vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com > wrote:
Hard to tell anything without the relevant link(s).
For you, maybe. Others have already given helpful replies
I have just come across a case on en.Wikipedia where the daughter of an article subject added details of his funeral (his death in 1984,w as already recorded) and his view about an indent in his life.
Her six sequential edits - her first and only contribution to Wikipedia - totalled 1254 characters, and were conducted over the space of 30 minutes. They were no the best quality, lacking sources, but were benign, and exactly what one might expect an untutored novice to do as a first change.
As well as being reverted, she now has three templates on her talk page; two warning her of a CoI, and sandwiching one notifying her of a discussion about her on the COI noticeboard. These total 4094 characters or 665 words.
How do other projects deal with such cases?
Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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