Daniel-
How about a setup like this: de.wikimedia.org en.wikimedia.org fr.wikimedia.org
Absolutely not! We need ONE place where we can all come together. That place is currently meta. I'm therefore very strongly opposed to balkanizing the only common place we all can edit. The interface issues need to be fixed and Meta should be made into a truly multilingual wiki.
Having multiple languages in one wiki doesn't help people to come together. In fact, in my experience, it does the exact opposite. Parcipation on Meta by people from languages like Chinese or Japanese is minimal. I'm afraid Meta is perceived as an extension of the English language Wikipedia.
You can't eliminate the language barrier by throwing all languages into one big pot. That only means that the most popular common one - English - will dominate and small pockets of non-English discussions will form. This is what has happened on the multilingual mailing lists and it is what will continue to happen on Meta if we stay on the current path.
The reality is that because of the language barrier, there *are* different communities. Because of national barriers, there *are* different Wikimedia interests. And there's no reason why an interesting global policy discussion shouldn't be started by people who speak no English whatsoever, and then be translated into the main languages if there is a vote.
While I would prefer it if all languages of a project were handled with a single database and codebase, this requires quite substantial changes to the current code, and is unlikely to happen anytime soon. And if it happens, we can port all the existing wikis over to that new system. But I think we should strive for a consistent approach.
Regards,
Erik
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
Having multiple languages in one wiki doesn't help people to come together. In fact, in my experience, it does the exact opposite. Parcipation on Meta by people from languages like Chinese or Japanese is minimal. I'm afraid Meta is perceived as an extension of the English language Wikipedia.
There is no reason why MediaWiki can't become multilingual. Since this has not happened on its own (probably due to the use of subdomains) we could use some of our award money to put a bounty on that. Somebody already tried to submit a patch for this but here is my idea:
*Have /xx subpages for each MediaWiki page where xx is a language code and the localized message is on the subpage. *create a language tagging system for articles; pages tagged for language xx will switch the user interface to language xx. *create @lang=xx as a url hack for forcing such a change via links - overriding any page tag. *add an option in user preferences to override per page interface language tags and url hacks.
We could also use the current category system to classify pages based on the language they are written in. Then using related changes from a category page would give a language-specific RC (yes, RC from category doesn't work yet, but I consider that a major bug).
You can't eliminate the language barrier by throwing all languages into one big pot. That only means that the most popular common one - English - will dominate and small pockets of non-English discussions will form. This is what has happened on the multilingual mailing lists and it is what will continue to happen on Meta if we stay on the current path.
Balkanization is not an answer either. Making Meta truly multi-lingual is the key.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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Daniel-
There is no reason why MediaWiki can't become multilingual. Since this has not happened on its own (probably due to the use of subdomains) we could use some of our award money to put a bounty on that. Somebody already tried to submit a patch for this
... which was woefully incomplete. I am completely in favor of properly internationalizing MediaWiki and putting a bounty on the implementation. However, such an implementation should be generic, i.e. it should allow us to migrate Wikipedia itself into that system. This requires some way to deal with namespace conflicts - e.g. wikimedia.org/en/Merchandising vs. wikimedia.org/de/Merchandising (the current Merchandising page on Meta is actually German), and we would have to set up automatic redirects for subdomain access. Given that, setting subdomains up now while we don't have this advanced code will put us well on the road to a nice general solution for all Wikimedia projects once we have it.
Regards,
Erik
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
... which was woefully incomplete. I am completely in favor of properly internationalizing MediaWiki and putting a bounty on the implementation. However, such an implementation should be generic, i.e. it should allow us to migrate Wikipedia itself into that system. This requires some way to deal with namespace conflicts - e.g. wikimedia.org/en/Merchandising vs. wikimedia.org/de/Merchandising (the current Merchandising page on Meta is actually German), and we would have to set up automatic redirects for subdomain access. Given that, setting subdomains up now while we don't have this advanced code will put us well on the road to a nice general solution for all Wikimedia projects once we have it.
If there is a problem with naming conflicts, then that is a very good reason to have separate wikis. That problem does not really exist for meta, wikisource, and wikibooks. In short, I think we should only divide things up if there is a compelling reason. Meta in *particular* is there for multiproject and multilingual coordination. How is that coordination going to happen on separate wikis?
Sorry, I will not support balkanization of Meta. We should work on improving the interface situation instead.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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Daniel-
If there is a problem with naming conflicts, then that is a very good reason to have separate wikis.
The distinction between "separate wikis" and "one wiki" is a lot blurrier than you describe it. Having proper multilanguage support within a single installation would lead to a setup very similar to our current one from the user POV, but with a lot of advantages which come with having a single database (e.g. it becomes very easy to have combined RC, watchlists, single sign-on etc.).
That problem does not really exist for meta, wikisource, and wikibooks.
Naming conflicts are largely independent of the purpose of the wiki; the larger a wiki gets the more likely they will become. Right now you could have a "Merchandising (German)" and a "Merchandising (English)" page, for example, but that is really just a workaround for a proper design and it's going to bite us in the ass sooner or later (e.g. template names are usually short and likely to cause conflicts).
The current MediaWiki design - separate installation for each language - was flawed from the start. It has served us reasonably well, but if we redesign it, we should do it properly.
In short, I think we should only divide things up if there is a compelling reason. Meta in *particular* is there for multiproject and multilingual coordination. How is that coordination going to happen on separate wikis?
The only compelling reason for having separate wiki installations is that it is the only way for the current setup to achieve - see only the language you care about - different language user interfaces (including MediaWiki: namespace) - standard interlanguage links - no naming conflicts
These things would be important on Meta as well to encourage international cooperation and reduce English dominance, hence my support for subdomains. With a properly designed system, we don't need to use separate installs for Meta, Wikipedia or any other wiki - they are all going to behave the same; you only see the languages you care about. (Emphasis on plural here.)
So, for example, when you would go to www.wikimedia.org, it would take the preferred language from your browser and show you, e.g., www.wikimedia.org/de/, but prominently show the other languages as well. You could set the order in your user prefs if you want. If you create a regular link from under de/, it would point to a German page. If you create a link from under en/, it would point to an English page. In your recent changes view, you would see only the RC for the languages which you have set in your browser or MediaWiki prefs.
The only thing that would change about the effective user experience on Meta is that it would become a lot more convenient, and that you could easily move only in your local language if you want (this is already possible in a half-assed way through the localized Main Pages). The balkanization you speak of does not exist here. And if you're afraid of too much language separation, there's no reason not to allow languages to be used liberally, e.g. on discussion pages, even in the subspace which is technically French, German or English.
Now, with a separate install, you lose certain functionality, which I agree is important, such as having multiple languages in one RC view, and having a single login. As Angela pointed out, the current interlanguage link system is also needlessly redundant. I can agree that this creates more trouble in the short term than it is worth, and that it leads to a certain amount of balkanization, although I think that this is being exaggerated for dramatic effect.
But then, if you agree that doing a proper multilingual setup for all wikis is a good and necessary thing, we should set a sizable bounty on it ASAP and do it the right way rather than have ever larger inconsistencies. This can be combined with single sign-on at least on a project level, something which a lot of people have been waiting for. I would be willing to write up a bounty proposal which specifies the necessary functionality if there is general agreement that this is what we should do.
Regards,
Erik
Daniel Mayer wrote:
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
... which was woefully incomplete. I am completely in favor of properly internationalizing MediaWiki and putting a bounty on the implementation. However, such an implementation should be generic, i.e. it should allow us to migrate Wikipedia itself into that system. This requires some way to deal with namespace conflicts - e.g. wikimedia.org/en/Merchandising vs. wikimedia.org/de/Merchandising (the current Merchandising page on Meta is actually German), and we would have to set up automatic redirects for subdomain access. Given that, setting subdomains up now while we don't have this advanced code will put us well on the road to a nice general solution for all Wikimedia projects once we have it.
If there is a problem with naming conflicts, then that is a very good reason to have separate wikis. That problem does not really exist for meta, wikisource, and wikibooks. In short, I think we should only divide things up if there is a compelling reason. Meta in *particular* is there for multiproject and multilingual coordination. How is that coordination going to happen on separate wikis?
Sorry, I will not support balkanization of Meta. We should work on improving the interface situation instead.
I really don't like engaging in me-too-ism, but I also don't llike it when only a couple people are left to carry the can.
I too oppose balkanization of Meta and other projects. People would certainly feel more at ease working in their own language groups, but always at the risk of not seeing what others are doing. Once the languages are separated there would never be any incentive to get them back together again, even if the right software were developed.
So far having all languages in one project has worked fine in Wikisource, which is not to say that it doesn't have interesting challenges. Contributions have already been made in a significant number of languages, most of which I can't read at all. There is a need to respect other languages, especially on the part of those who speak an imperializing language like English. Speakers of other languages are aware of the dominant role of English, and it really doesn't require a huge effort of Wikilove for English speakers to exercise sufficient respect.
Ec
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