TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board for the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
As a mostly silent reader of this list, I'd like to spammingly +1 this message. There's hardly anything more superfluous than these "Welcome from Wikimedia Schleswig-Holstein as well!!!!" mails. Am 13.01.2016 12:12 schrieb "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board for the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your
mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
+1 from me too, and to not be spammy myself, I'll add:
one very appropriate way to do welcomes and thanks is *on-wiki*. Notes welcoming people (or announcing new boards etc.) should, as a matter of habit, include a wiki URL (the user's page, or the affiliate's page, etc.), where people would be invited to leave thank/welcome notes. People interested in others' messages could watchlist the page, or read the accumulated messages all at once, and the list would be quieter.
A.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 4:06 AM, MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
As a mostly silent reader of this list, I'd like to spammingly +1 this message. There's hardly anything more superfluous than these "Welcome from Wikimedia Schleswig-Holstein as well!!!!" mails. Am 13.01.2016 12:12 schrieb "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board
for
the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your
mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, The drawback is that not everyone has the inclination to read everything on Meta as well. At some stage it is just too much. By insisting on silence, the silence may become overwhelming and it increases the notion that this list is only for polical tigers. Thanks, GerardM
On 13 January 2016 at 18:00, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
+1 from me too, and to not be spammy myself, I'll add:
one very appropriate way to do welcomes and thanks is *on-wiki*. Notes welcoming people (or announcing new boards etc.) should, as a matter of habit, include a wiki URL (the user's page, or the affiliate's page, etc.), where people would be invited to leave thank/welcome notes. People interested in others' messages could watchlist the page, or read the accumulated messages all at once, and the list would be quieter.
A.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 4:06 AM, MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
As a mostly silent reader of this list, I'd like to spammingly +1 this message. There's hardly anything more superfluous than these "Welcome
from
Wikimedia Schleswig-Holstein as well!!!!" mails. Am 13.01.2016 12:12 schrieb "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board
for
the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your
mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list (in the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we didn't rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little information will probably still remain.
Chris
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The drawback is that not everyone has the inclination to read everything on Meta as well. At some stage it is just too much. By insisting on silence, the silence may become overwhelming and it increases the notion that this list is only for polical tigers. Thanks, GerardM
On 13 January 2016 at 18:00, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
+1 from me too, and to not be spammy myself, I'll add:
one very appropriate way to do welcomes and thanks is *on-wiki*. Notes welcoming people (or announcing new boards etc.) should, as a matter of habit, include a wiki URL (the user's page, or the affiliate's page,
etc.),
where people would be invited to leave thank/welcome notes. People interested in others' messages could watchlist the page, or read the accumulated messages all at once, and the list would be quieter.
A.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 4:06 AM, MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com wrote:
As a mostly silent reader of this list, I'd like to spammingly +1 this message. There's hardly anything more superfluous than these "Welcome
from
Wikimedia Schleswig-Holstein as well!!!!" mails. Am 13.01.2016 12:12 schrieb "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and
goodbyes
without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile
phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than
making
a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute
them;
equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the
Wikimedia
Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same
board
for
the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your
mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list (in the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we didn't rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little information will probably still remain.
Although I am quite rarely sending "thank you" messages (OK, it's not just "quite rarely", as I sent it once and it was privately to Cary Bass), I tend to agree with Chris. This list is quite tough and it's nice to see thanking and welcoming threads, no matter if I am not reading them.
As sending those messages is quite controllable -- meaning that people from WMF/chapters/similar structures are doing that, I think simple addition into the subject line like "[notification]" would allow those who don't like to filter such messages.
These days those messages are the best stuffs sent to this list, I'm definitely not bored by them. Anyone subscribing this list knows is a 500 emails/months list.
Vito
Il 13/01/2016 19:15, Milos Rancic ha scritto:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list (in the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we didn't rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little information will probably still remain.
Although I am quite rarely sending "thank you" messages (OK, it's not just "quite rarely", as I sent it once and it was privately to Cary Bass), I tend to agree with Chris. This list is quite tough and it's nice to see thanking and welcoming threads, no matter if I am not reading them.
As sending those messages is quite controllable -- meaning that people from WMF/chapters/similar structures are doing that, I think simple addition into the subject line like "[notification]" would allow those who don't like to filter such messages.
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list (in the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we didn't rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little information will probably still remain.
+1 I would much rather filter outrage spam :-) There is more of it, and unlike thanks, it tends to have a demoralizing effect.
I do agree in general that generic '+1' emails contribute very little. If you really want to thank someone, or welcome them, it probably makes a better impression if you write a little more than that. Say a few lines to introduce the list, give them a tip or offer them to show them around.
Personally, I prefer to send those mails offlist by the way - but I can feel with people that with all the dramaspam (how important and justified it sometimes may be/feel) you kinda feel a need to balance that out ;)
Lodewijk
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 3:17 AM, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com
wrote:
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list
(in
the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we didn't rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little information will probably still remain.
+1 I would much rather filter outrage spam :-) There is more of it, and unlike thanks, it tends to have a demoralizing effect. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Crikey, balance, spam, dont contribute, very little contribution, +1 pile on (though we dont see many -1 pile ons).....
we are society/community that works because we collaborate we assume good faith int he actions of others, we know that while we speak(email) in english many of us have different levels of understanding, hey even those fluent in english dont necessarily understand what each other is saying.
Fae is right there could be a better ways to communicate we should explore how to achieve that and we should keep going back to that very question from time to time improve how we do things.
the most important point that is; Its just good manners to welcome people, and to say thank you.
Consider the advice to send a message off list, would you really like to be on the receiving end of a 100 thank you emails, or 100 welcome emails all saying similar but possibly different things wow talk of creating spam, then that person would feel obliged to answer every one of them individually. The beauty of the list is we all see and acknowledge an appreciation of what someone has achieved or to welcome them to the group and they only have to respond once or twice to the group.
When you distill it down all sharing an equal burden of the odd extra email, is still a better way to support the communities growth than making one individual accept a heavy burden so we dont have to see that practice people exercising courtesy and good manners publicly
On 14 January 2016 at 15:13, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
I do agree in general that generic '+1' emails contribute very little. If you really want to thank someone, or welcome them, it probably makes a better impression if you write a little more than that. Say a few lines to introduce the list, give them a tip or offer them to show them around.
Personally, I prefer to send those mails offlist by the way - but I can feel with people that with all the dramaspam (how important and justified it sometimes may be/feel) you kinda feel a need to balance that out ;)
Lodewijk
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 3:17 AM, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Chris Keating <
chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com
wrote:
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list
(in
the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we
didn't
rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little
information
will probably still remain.
+1 I would much rather filter outrage spam :-) There is more of it, and
unlike
thanks, it tends to have a demoralizing effect. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I agree that thankspam is somewhat irritating, but it is also a good way to make people feel welcome and appreciated. An alternative is to consider moving wikimedia-l to a tool like discourse.org that has (1) built-in likes, which communicate welcome and appreciation without creating noise and (2) ability for all users to mute/ignore specific threads. (Also better moderation tools, and likely somewhat more welcoming to people who don't use email much, or feel overwhelmed by it - both of whom are large groups!)
Obviously that would be somewhat of a big change, but it's something we can look into (low priority! no promises!) if people have interest.
Luis
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com
wrote:
To me, "Hello" and "Thank you" are quite under-used words on this list
(in
the movement generally but particularly here) so I would prefer we didn't rule these emails out.
After all, if we remove pile-on positive threads that contain little information then pile-on negative threads with equally little information will probably still remain.
+1 I would much rather filter outrage spam :-) There is more of it, and unlike thanks, it tends to have a demoralizing effect. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Jan 14, 2016 8:35 PM, "Luis Villa" lvilla@wikimedia.org wrote:
I agree that thankspam is somewhat irritating, but it is also a good way
to
make people feel welcome and appreciated. An alternative is to consider moving wikimedia-l to a tool like discourse.org
Thanks for that idea. Discourse looks great. Maybe worth testing out casually for some wiki* discussions before deciding whether or not to try replacing a particular list.
Sj
My experiences with discourse in a non-Wikimedia context is great. Worth a try.
Alice.
----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ----- Von: "Samuel Klein" meta.sj@gmail.com Gesendet: 15.01.2016 02:46 An: "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
On Jan 14, 2016 8:35 PM, "Luis Villa" lvilla@wikimedia.org wrote:
I agree that thankspam is somewhat irritating, but it is also a good way
to
make people feel welcome and appreciated. An alternative is to consider moving wikimedia-l to a tool like discourse.org
Thanks for that idea. Discourse looks great. Maybe worth testing out casually for some wiki* discussions before deciding whether or not to try replacing a particular list.
Sj _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
If I'm not mistaken, we recently discussed about this. I'd love using Discourse myself...
Aubrey Il 15/gen/2016 06:08 "Alice Wiegand" me.lyzzy@gmail.com ha scritto:
My experiences with discourse in a non-Wikimedia context is great. Worth a try.
Alice.
----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ----- Von: "Samuel Klein" meta.sj@gmail.com Gesendet: 15.01.2016 02:46 An: "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
On Jan 14, 2016 8:35 PM, "Luis Villa" lvilla@wikimedia.org wrote:
I agree that thankspam is somewhat irritating, but it is also a good way
to
make people feel welcome and appreciated. An alternative is to consider moving wikimedia-l to a tool like discourse.org
Thanks for that idea. Discourse looks great. Maybe worth testing out casually for some wiki* discussions before deciding whether or not to try replacing a particular list.
Sj _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
So, what do we need to start using it? An installation on Wikimedia servers?
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, we recently discussed about this. I'd love using Discourse myself...
Aubrey Il 15/gen/2016 06:08 "Alice Wiegand" me.lyzzy@gmail.com ha scritto:
My experiences with discourse in a non-Wikimedia context is great. Worth a try.
Alice.
----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ----- Von: "Samuel Klein" meta.sj@gmail.com Gesendet: 15.01.2016 02:46 An: "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
On Jan 14, 2016 8:35 PM, "Luis Villa" lvilla@wikimedia.org wrote:
I agree that thankspam is somewhat irritating, but it is also a good way
to
make people feel welcome and appreciated. An alternative is to consider moving wikimedia-l to a tool like discourse.org
Thanks for that idea. Discourse looks great. Maybe worth testing out casually for some wiki* discussions before deciding whether or not to try replacing a particular list.
Sj _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hello,
Le vendredi 15 janvier 2016, 06:07:54 Alice Wiegand a écrit :
My experiences with discourse in a non-Wikimedia context is great. Worth a try.
+1.
A few weeks ago, I drafted some notes about moving Wikimedia mailing lists to Discourse (I posted them on a private wiki; I should have known better).
I've now posted the drafts on Meta: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
I suggest we expand that page and continue this specific discussion on the talk page.*
* Sadly, we don't have Flow on Meta, so it'll be good ol' wikitext.
On 15 January 2016 at 15:50, Guillaume Paumier guillaume.paumier@gmail.com wrote:
moving Wikimedia mailing lists to Discourse
What problem is this intended to solve?
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 15 January 2016 at 15:50, Guillaume Paumier guillaume.paumier@gmail.com wrote:
moving Wikimedia mailing lists to Discourse
What problem is this intended to solve?
Very short answer is "that mailing lists are an awful user experience for most people". Longer, but still very partial, list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we.27d_gain_.28user_experienc...
I'll add more there at some point, but probably not today.
Luis
This talks mostly of 'moving there' which suddenly in a very short time quite a number of people seem on board with. Glad that you're so thrilled about it. To be honest, while I am not always happy with ways we discuss, that has more often to do with the people than with the technology.
At the same time, as long as it doesn't 'hurt' I don't want to stand in the way either. So if discussions remain possible the way we have them (sending emails to an address in response to an email etc) and therefore it integrates with the other workflows we have (I don't think I'd have the time and energy to visit /yet another/ platform on a daily basis...) I'd be ok with a trial period. For example, moving one or two lists there (ideally that have much overlap), and try it out for a while in a Wikimedia context.
But moving everything there, all at once... no thanks. For that, our discussion system is too critical a structure to bet with.
So the basic questions I would like to see answered at some point at this page (thanks Guillaume for setting it up) would be 1) can we keep doing what we do (the page suggests yes, but it is unsure about new topics - and therefore also splitting off discussions) and 2) can we try it with a small number, without too crazy costs in time and resources?
Lodewijk
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Luis Villa lvilla@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 15 January 2016 at 15:50, Guillaume Paumier guillaume.paumier@gmail.com wrote:
moving Wikimedia mailing lists to Discourse
What problem is this intended to solve?
Very short answer is "that mailing lists are an awful user experience for most people". Longer, but still very partial, list at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we.27d_gain_.28user_experienc...
I'll add more there at some point, but probably not today.
Luis
-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge.* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Mozilla and OKFN are both using it with solid success.
Anyone have (other, smaller) lists they might volunteer to experiment with first, assuming I can convince engineering (or maybe Discourse.com) to host an instance?
Luis
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Alice Wiegand me.lyzzy@gmail.com wrote:
My experiences with discourse in a non-Wikimedia context is great. Worth a try.
Alice.
----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ----- Von: "Samuel Klein" meta.sj@gmail.com Gesendet: 15.01.2016 02:46 An: "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
On Jan 14, 2016 8:35 PM, "Luis Villa" lvilla@wikimedia.org wrote:
I agree that thankspam is somewhat irritating, but it is also a good way
to
make people feel welcome and appreciated. An alternative is to consider moving wikimedia-l to a tool like discourse.org
Thanks for that idea. Discourse looks great. Maybe worth testing out casually for some wiki* discussions before deciding whether or not to try replacing a particular list.
Sj _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I totally second this. Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: Wednesday, 13 January 2016 1:11 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Better thankspam
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board for the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
... -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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And "thank you" Fæ, for brining this up! [pun intended] [sarcasm alert] [weapons down]
Pardon my poor sense of humour, but I couldn't resist! :P
I believe "thank you" and "please" are magic words, specially in voluntary works. I agree with Chris. On Jan 13, 2016 5:11 PM, "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com wrote:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board for the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your
mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I agree with Chris too! Thank you Chris!
Aubrey. Il 13/gen/2016 22:32 "Shabab Mustafa" shabab.mustafa@gmail.com ha scritto:
And "thank you" Fæ, for brining this up! [pun intended] [sarcasm alert] [weapons down]
Pardon my poor sense of humour, but I couldn't resist! :P
I believe "thank you" and "please" are magic words, specially in voluntary works. I agree with Chris. On Jan 13, 2016 5:11 PM, "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com wrote:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board
for
the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your
mistake
caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);
I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Thankspam is not big a problem in my opinion. One or two seconds per message and you're done, then your mind will be full of good. What I find most annoying are long emails with few actual contents. You have to read them to find out they were not worth reading.
Il 13/01/2016 12:11, Fæ ha scritto:
TL;DR Can anyone suggest of a better way of publicly logging thanks, hellos & goodbyes for our public email lists?
BACKGROUND Wikimedia lists are probably unique in the number of emails over a year which 'thankspam'. For example there is a pattern set that an awful lot of chapter representatives send public welcomes and goodbyes without conveying any new information. Sometimes when my email notifier shows about ten of these on the same day, I've made the effort to block that thread, I don't know of a way of specifically muting the notifications for these types of emails on my mobile phone.
Though everyone could chose to send these privately rather than making a public statement, I understand the motivation for "us too"s to be noticed by others who are not the intended 'thanked'. On email lists something like ensuring thank email subject lines have a formulaic part of the title would help, so that readers can choose to mute them; equivalent to marking "minor" or "bot" edits on our projects so they don't get flagged in recent changes.
This thought stirred by Ad's email, but not against the sentiment he was aiming for.
PS For those that recall my meta thanks reports, I hope to get this online again soon once a related phabricator task is resolved.
Fae
On 13 January 2016 at 09:21, Ad Huikeshoven ad@wikimedia.nl wrote: ...
I failed to welcome incoming directors to the board of the Wikimedia Foundation and I failed to thank outgoing directors of the same board for the time and effort they have spent.
- that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your mistake caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);I'm sorry for this unpolite and rude behavior.
...
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org