I experienced problems importing the 20060817 enwiki dumps using MediaWiki 1.7.1 with the machine translation project, so I put together a bzip2 package with MediaWiki 1.7.1 with all the extensions and PHP fixes necessary to use the Wikipedia enwiki dumps which also includes all the support extensions for Native Cherokee and other Machine translation projects. The updated bzip2 package may be useful to others since the released MediaWiki 1.7.1 does not run with the XML dumps currently published by the Wikimedia Foundation without all these fixes and extensions included and configured.
ftp://www.wikigadugi.org/wiki/MediaWiki/mediawiki-1.7.1.WG-20060904.tar.gz.bz2
Jeff
Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
I experienced problems importing the 20060817 enwiki dumps using MediaWiki 1.7.1 with the machine translation project, so I put together a bzip2 package with MediaWiki 1.7.1 with all the extensions and PHP fixes necessary to use the Wikipedia enwiki dumps which also includes all the support extensions for Native Cherokee and other Machine translation projects. The updated bzip2 package may be useful to others since the released MediaWiki 1.7.1 does not run with the XML dumps currently published by the Wikimedia Foundation without all these fixes and extensions included and configured.
ftp://www.wikigadugi.org/wiki/MediaWiki/mediawiki-1.7.1.WG-20060904.tar.gz.bz2
Jeff
This is not the right list for this type of message. I am not a moderator, but I would like to kindly ask you to refrain from posting such things in the future, as this is not remotely a foundation issue.
Thank you, Filip
Filip Maljkovic wrote:
This is not the right list for this type of message. I am not a moderator, but I would like to kindly ask you to refrain from posting such things in the future, as this is not remotely a foundation issue.
Thank you, Filip _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Whether the Foundations XML dumps work with MediaWiki are a legitimate foundation issue. I am a lawfully organized business enterprise who supports the Foundation and its goals and provides MediaWiki apliances. The foundation should know when MediaWiki has been intentionally broken not to function with the standard XML dumps.
Jeff
Dear Foundation,
Can we setup a wkimedia-b list (that's b for "business related") that is **NOT** moderated by community members but by Foundation employees for business entities to use to post business ralated matters. To be honest, while I understand the community spilling over and attempting to control the content of foundation-l, there are legitimte business intreactions with your group that can and do go on and a list for that would be more condusive and less disruptive of business related activities.
Jeff
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
へそが茶をわかすとはこういうことをいうのかと思う私。
On 9/6/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Dear Foundation,
Can we setup a wkimedia-b list (that's b for "business related") that is **NOT** moderated by community members but by Foundation employees for business entities to use to post business ralated matters. To be honest, while I understand the community spilling over and attempting to control the content of foundation-l, there are legitimte business intreactions with your group that can and do go on and a list for that would be more condusive and less disruptive of business related activities.
Jeff
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 12:41:30AM +0900, Aphaia wrote:
?$B$X$=$,Cc$r$o$+$9$H$O$3$&$$$&$3$H$r$$$&$N$+$H;W$&;d!#
I'm not sure I can quite interpret that. Nevertheless, I second the remark.
Kim Bruning wrote:
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 12:41:30AM +0900, Aphaia wrote:
?$B$X$=$,Cc$r$o$+$9$H$O$3$&$$$&$3$H$r$$$&$N$+$H;W$&;d!#
I'm not sure I can quite interpret that. Nevertheless, I second the remark.
It's not a topic that requires a vote from the community or even is relevant to the community. It was a question of creating a segregated list for business related postings that quite frankly, don't involve the community.
:-)
Jeff
Hmmm, who are you referring to as "someone of the foundation who should be moderating the list"? I don't think that someone is availeble, especially when I see how much work they already have. Further I find it hard to imagine business-proposals that should be discussed on some list, but not by the Wikimedia-communities. If the argument would be "high-traffic" I could follow your redenation, although I would have still my doubts, but I am afraight I lost you here totally. You seem to suggest either that you want to discuss things behind the back of the communities because they would be disturbing the process, but then I am wondering why it should be on a emaillist at all, or you seem to suggest that the communities are anyway incompetent to understand or discuss the proposals, and I find that very insulting to the people who make up these communities. Maybe you could clarify which of the two you mean, or which other meaning you had in mind.
Lodewijk
2006/9/6, Jeffrey V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com:
Kim Bruning wrote:
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 12:41:30AM +0900, Aphaia wrote:
?$B$X$=$,Cc$r$o$+$9$H$O$3$&$$$&$3$H$r$$$&$N$+$H;W$&;d!#
I'm not sure I can quite interpret that. Nevertheless, I second the remark.
It's not a topic that requires a vote from the community or even is relevant to the community. It was a question of creating a segregated list for business related postings that quite frankly, don't involve the community.
:-)
Jeff _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
effe iets anders wrote:
Hmmm, who are you referring to as "someone of the foundation who should be moderating the list"? I don't think that someone is availeble, especially when I see how much work they already have. Further I find it hard to imagine business-proposals that should be discussed on some list, but not by the Wikimedia-communities. If the argument would be "high-traffic" I could follow your redenation, although I would have still my doubts, but I am afraight I lost you here totally. You seem to suggest either that you want to discuss things behind the back of the communities because they would be disturbing the process, but then I am wondering why it should be on a emaillist at all, or you seem to suggest that the communities are anyway incompetent to understand or discuss the proposals, and I find that very insulting to the people who make up these communities. Maybe you could clarify which of the two you mean, or which other meaning you had in mind.
Lodewijk
A suggestion for a list where people building businesses around Wikipedia could discuss business related issues with a similiar mindset. That's all. Issues like: How do we keep MediaWiki synced up to always work with dumps. How can we help the foundation create revenue generating opportunities. Schedules for conferences for business people who are using Wikipedia content in business and for funded education programs. How do we rally funding for project X proposed by Community member 'X'. That sort of thing.
Jeff
On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
(...) That sort of thing.
And why can't this be open to the community as well? You know, the wiki principle (at least that's what I thought), is "keep everything transparent which does not need to be secret". The aims of this list as described by you do not seem to need any special privacy/secret status. Michael
Jeff _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Michael Bimmler wrote:
On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
(...) That sort of thing.
And why can't this be open to the community as well? You know, the wiki principle (at least that's what I thought), is "keep everything transparent which does not need to be secret". The aims of this list as described by you do not seem to need any special privacy/secret status. Michael
You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I will have to in order for folks to get it.
Business 101
1. Businesses have goals with involve creating revenue and positive growth, in almost all ways identical to the communities eventual goals. 2. Businesses are protected by laws and have legal obligations to their customers, partners, the Foundation, and other entities and they MUST comply with and protect the rights of these parties. 3. Businesses make decisions based upon goals which are designed to promote their objectives. 4. Wikipedia centric businesses would be expected to have goals which promote wikipedia content in education, business, and attempt to promote the spread of Wikipedia's pervasive content and create opportunties to grow Wikipedia in a positive financial growth model to create and support new communities and expand the power and reach of the existing communities. 5. The goals of the Community will be expected to be at odds with the goals of financial growth at times. 6. The community is in fact an "entity" of sorts, separate and distinct from the Foundation, and any business ventures which attempt to promote its goals. 7. Businesses and ventures promoting Wikipedia will have a fiduciary duty to protect the investments of the Foundation and any investors funding such efforts. 8. Millions of dollars may in time be invested in such endeavors. 9. When a faction of the community decides it does not like a particular business venture or someone involved, and resorts to disruptive behavior or other actions to derail or interfere with the Foundations projects in the real world, it's not disruption, it's "tortious inteference" and it's actionable will expose the foundation and community to problems with investors or stakeholders in these efforts. In other words, it would call into conflict a balancing of the ventures fiduciary duty vs. their stated goals in support of the community iteself. Many ventures would simply back away and make a decision dealing with the Community is too great a business risk and simply stop supporting it or fork Wikipedia and try to steam roller over the Foundation. This is not condusive to positive growth or the ultimate goal of promoting Wikipedia and creating opporunities for explosive growth for the foundation. 10. Companies do not make agreements with anonymous email accounts on gmail or accounts on Wikipedia, they make agreements with organized entities and identifiable indivduals and stake holders. 11. A business related list would be a good venue. Certainly, the community could provide input, but such a list would need moderation by a representative of the Foundation, not a community member who has no fiduciary duty or responsiblity to the Foundations policies. Community members should ABSOLUTELY be allowed participation as they are the heart and soul of the basic nature of the opporutnities. They should not be running the list or any other element beyond their suggestions and contributions to creating new ventures. In other words, when a non-employee or person without fiduciary duty attempts to disrupt or lobby against such an effort OUTSIDE of FOUNDATION CHANNELs, they are out on a limb and expose all the parties to liablity.
Hope that explains it.
All my love,
Jeff
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I will have to in order for folks to get it.
Business 101 [....] Hope that explains it.
That was unnecessary, but OK.
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
Michael Bimmler wrote:
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
And you still find that not enough? Contact with the Wikimedia officials is exactly and exclusively what you need. And if you're mails are so business-like, then what's the purpose of sending them to foundation-l, which is open for everyone to state their opinions? I don't think making a "business" mailing list would be helpful. Sending mails to relevant people instead is.
Filip
IANAL, but assuming there is a liability issue. We should create a business list or perhaps a "content re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in the sign-up message for this list that it is an open discussion list and that official requests should be sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go. I strongly disagree with the Foundation paying someone to moderate a public email list.
Birgitte SB
--- "Jeff V. Merkey" jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Michael Bimmler wrote:
On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey
jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
(...) That sort of thing.
And why can't this be open to the community as
well? You know, the
wiki principle (at least that's what I thought), is
"keep everything
transparent which does not need to be secret". The
aims of this list
as described by you do not seem to need any special
privacy/secret
status. Michael
You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I will have to in order for folks to get it.
Business 101
- Businesses have goals with involve creating
revenue and positive growth, in almost all ways identical to the communities eventual goals. 2. Businesses are protected by laws and have legal obligations to their customers, partners, the Foundation, and other entities and they MUST comply with and protect the rights of these parties. 3. Businesses make decisions based upon goals which are designed to promote their objectives. 4. Wikipedia centric businesses would be expected to have goals which promote wikipedia content in education, business, and attempt to promote the spread of Wikipedia's pervasive content and create opportunties to grow Wikipedia in a positive financial growth model to create and support new communities and expand the power and reach of the existing communities. 5. The goals of the Community will be expected to be at odds with the goals of financial growth at times. 6. The community is in fact an "entity" of sorts, separate and distinct from the Foundation, and any business ventures which attempt to promote its goals. 7. Businesses and ventures promoting Wikipedia will have a fiduciary duty to protect the investments of the Foundation and any investors funding such efforts. 8. Millions of dollars may in time be invested in such endeavors. 9. When a faction of the community decides it does not like a particular business venture or someone involved, and resorts to disruptive behavior or other actions to derail or interfere with the Foundations projects in the real world, it's not disruption, it's "tortious inteference" and it's actionable will expose the foundation and community to problems with investors or stakeholders in these efforts. In other words, it would call into conflict a balancing of the ventures fiduciary duty vs. their stated goals in support of the community iteself. Many ventures would simply back away and make a decision dealing with the Community is too great a business risk and simply stop supporting it or fork Wikipedia and try to steam roller over the Foundation. This is not condusive to positive growth or the ultimate goal of promoting Wikipedia and creating opporunities for explosive growth for the foundation. 10. Companies do not make agreements with anonymous email accounts on gmail or accounts on Wikipedia, they make agreements with organized entities and identifiable indivduals and stake holders. 11. A business related list would be a good venue. Certainly, the community could provide input, but such a list would need moderation by a representative of the Foundation, not a community member who has no fiduciary duty or responsiblity to the Foundations policies. Community members should ABSOLUTELY be allowed participation as they are the heart and soul of the basic nature of the opporutnities. They should not be running the list or any other element beyond their suggestions and contributions to creating new ventures. In other words, when a non-employee or person without fiduciary duty attempts to disrupt or lobby against such an effort OUTSIDE of FOUNDATION CHANNELs, they are out on a limb and expose all the parties to liablity.
Hope that explains it.
All my love,
Jeff
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Birgitte SB wrote:
IANAL, but assuming there is a liability issue. We should create a business list or perhaps a "content re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in the sign-up message for this list that it is an open discussion list and that official requests should be sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go. I strongly disagree with the Foundation paying someone to moderate a public email list.
Birgitte SB
This is reasonable and would allow the community to have visibility into business developments and input and remove all liabilty from postings to the list under the CDA. It has worked well for Linux Kernel development to operate this way. Should work here.
Jeff
On 06/09/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
We should create a business list or perhaps a "content re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in the sign-up message for this list that it is an open discussion list and that official requests should be sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go.
This is a *great* idea. And even as someone who writes en:wp articles and does Foundation stuff and has little interest in running a mirror, I'd be very interested to know what people do and want to do with our hard work. The idea of open content is "Use our stuff," after all.
So what do we need for this to happen?
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 06/09/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
We should create a business list or perhaps a "content re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in the sign-up message for this list that it is an open discussion list and that official requests should be sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go.
This is a *great* idea. And even as someone who writes en:wp articles and does Foundation stuff and has little interest in running a mirror, I'd be very interested to know what people do and want to do with our hard work. The idea of open content is "Use our stuff," after all.
So what do we need for this to happen?
David,
Make the list and I'll move over to it immediately.
Jeff
- d.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 09:21:59AM -0600, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
It's not a topic that requires a vote from the community or even is relevant to the community. It was a question of creating a segregated list for business related postings that quite frankly, don't involve the community.
You're a business, it's your money. I'm sure you can run majordomo (or other mailinglist tools) on one of your plentiful servers.
read you soon, Kim Bruning
On 05/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
I experienced problems importing the 20060817 enwiki dumps using MediaWiki 1.7.1 with the machine translation project, so I put together
You want to ask wikitech-l about this (Wikimedia-related technical discussions).
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 05/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
I experienced problems importing the 20060817 enwiki dumps using MediaWiki 1.7.1 with the machine translation project, so I put together
You want to ask wikitech-l about this (Wikimedia-related technical discussions).
Hi david,
I wasn't asking a question, just letting folks know that the MACHINE TRANSLATTION project had fixed a version of MediaWiki with the XML dumps that wasnot broken.
David, thanks for the professional and courteous reply.
Jeff
- d.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
Have a nyce day.
[[:m:User:555]]
On 9/5/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 05/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
I experienced problems importing the 20060817 enwiki dumps using MediaWiki 1.7.1 with the machine translation project, so I put together
You want to ask wikitech-l about this (Wikimedia-related technical
discussions).
Hi david,
I wasn't asking a question, just letting folks know that the MACHINE TRANSLATTION project had fixed a version of MediaWiki with the XML dumps that wasnot broken.
David, thanks for the professional and courteous reply.
Jeff
- d.
Luiz Augusto wrote:
Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good example why...
Jeff
On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Luiz Augusto wrote:
Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good example why...
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience. I don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for business purposes. Michael
Jeff
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Michael Bimmler wrote:
On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Luiz Augusto wrote:
Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good example why...
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
I don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for business purposes.
I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact, it's the other way around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for purely political reasons. I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African languages and other programs, but a business oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community moderator concept here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee threatens to moderate or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues potentially created for the foundation. Issues I would rather not deal with.
Jeff
Michael
Arbeiter in der ganzen Welt, nope,
Hello Wikipedians, please remember one old our axiom right now.
DONT FEED A TROLL
and be wise enough ignore taunts of Mr. Jeff V. Merkey. He will find his own community, somewhere else, and it will be not our business at all in my precognition.
Cheers,
On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Michael Bimmler wrote:
On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Luiz Augusto wrote:
Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good example why...
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
I don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for business purposes.
I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact, it's the other way around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for purely political reasons. I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African languages and other programs, but a business oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community moderator concept here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee threatens to moderate or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues potentially created for the foundation. Issues I would rather not deal with.
Jeff
Michael
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Aphaia wrote:
Arbeiter in der ganzen Welt, nope,
Hello Wikipedians, please remember one old our axiom right now.
DONT FEED A TROLL
and be wise enough ignore taunts of Mr. Jeff V. Merkey. He will find his own community, somewhere else, and it will be not our business at all in my precognition.
Cheers,
Hello Aphaia,
I am not taunting anyone, and I am sorry you feel this way, and I apologize if an impression was created this is the case.
Have a great day. I have some more units to ship today.
Jeff
I'm somewhat puzzled at the response to this thread. I appreciate Mr Merkey has greatly annoyed many people in the past, but I know he's putting in effort to work better with others now; and I'm not saying Assume Good Faith In The Face Of All Reason (there are many people whose names I never want to see in my Wikipedia email ever again) - but that first mail read to *me* like a Wikimedia bug report (problems reading data dumps), which only needs redirection to wikitech.
So, um, could everyone please just take a deep breath? And if there's a problem with the current dumps, I'm sure the devs would rather know than not know, and politely directing people to the right list is a better response even if it was sent by Lir or Wik or Plautus Satire or something.
(And I know I'm way guilty of blowing my top inappropriately on the lists of late and do apologise again and will calm down and settle into middle-aged suburban existence soon, I swear.)
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
I'm somewhat puzzled at the response to this thread. I appreciate Mr Merkey has greatly annoyed many people in the past, but I know he's putting in effort to work better with others now; and I'm not saying Assume Good Faith In The Face Of All Reason (there are many people whose names I never want to see in my Wikipedia email ever again) - but that first mail read to *me* like a Wikimedia bug report (problems reading data dumps), which only needs redirection to wikitech.
So, um, could everyone please just take a deep breath? And if there's a problem with the current dumps, I'm sure the devs would rather know than not know, and politely directing people to the right list is a better response even if it was sent by Lir or Wik or Plautus Satire or something.
(And I know I'm way guilty of blowing my top inappropriately on the lists of late and do apologise again and will calm down and settle into middle-aged suburban existence soon, I swear.)
- d.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
David,
I appreciate your professional anbd courteous response.
I will post bug reports to the other list in the future (if they are bug reports). I raised this issue in the chat room several weeks ago and I just waited and waited and never saw any action taken or fixes to the problem and I had to make the php fixes myself for some pending appliance shipments, so I felt like I was helping by providing a fixed version and bringing it to the Foundations attention. They after all are posting dumps and telling the public to use MediaWiki with them. I felt they should be informed there are potential issues with the whole thing working as advertised.
It affects our efforts more directly since we provide the ability to sync and seed new communities with entire full mirrors of wikipedia that actually work and can resync with the Foundation. I certainly did not want to create hurt feelings and my suggestion about a business related list was to take many of these issues into another forum so the Foundation could manage them separately. I have been working very hard on these projects to help the Foundation and your assessment is very accurate and informed.
Jeff
On 05/09/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
I appreciate your professional anbd courteous response.
I'm working more on holding my tongue, having posted a few too many "WHAT THE F- CRACK ARE YOU ON" style posts of late ;-p
It affects our efforts more directly since we provide the ability to sync and seed new communities with entire full mirrors of wikipedia that actually work and can resync with the Foundation.
Well, yes - mirrors and reuse are a good thing. I know there's been a few issues with dumps. Basically, the devs' priority is keeping the sites running, and dumps are secondary. This is way less than ideal, but we're a top-20 website with NO MONEY and NO STAFF. Everyone else in the top 20 has a huge technical team and an actual budget ... we have two technical employees and still I think run under $1m a year, which is chickenfeed for what we serve. This is not an excuse, just stating the reason.
- d.
On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
(...)
It affects our efforts more directly since we provide the ability to
sync and seed new communities with entire full mirrors of wikipedia that actually work and can resync with the Foundation. I certainly did not want to create hurt feelings and my suggestion about a business related list was to take many of these issues into another forum so the Foundation could manage them separately. I have been working very hard on these projects to help the Foundation and your assessment is very accurate and informed.
Jeff
I have a nicely private working wiki with the last dump of Portuguese Wikisource for personal tests and research using MediaWiki 1.>>8alpha<< (and some extensions) sincronized from subversion repository in a Ubuntu Linux machine and I never needed to ask something in foundation-l or in any another mail listing on how to get it working (the only know issue is the non display of Commons media, but this isn't a bug, is only a limitation). My real work isn't related to IT, I'm a historian. Jeff, please STOP talking about your efforts related to translation machines on this list. I and anothers spend only free time to devote to Wikimedia projects and these off-topic messages is time spendend in non-Wikimedia efforts in a Wikimedia only list.
If you (or anothers) need to reply something to me about this message, do it only privately.
Thanks for you attention and understanding
Luiz Augusto wrote:
My real work isn't related to IT, I'm a historian. Jeff, please STOP talking about your efforts related to translation machines on this list. I and anothers spend only free time to devote to Wikimedia projects and these off-topic messages is time spendend in non-Wikimedia efforts in a Wikimedia only list.
If you (or anothers) need to reply something to me about this message, do it only privately.
Have a great day Luiz, I completely disagree with your views, but nonetheless, have a great day.
:-)
Jeff
Off-list-reply, following Aphaia's plea
On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Michael Bimmler wrote:
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
Well, okay, so you can handle your questions with Brad and everything is fine. Why do send them to the list then?
I don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for business purposes.
I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact, it's the other way around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for purely political reasons.
It might rather be for on-/offtopic reasons...
I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African languages and other programs, but a business oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community moderator concept here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee threatens to moderate or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues potentially created for the foundation. Issues I would rather not deal with.
I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the foundation may get legal problems (my translation of your word "issue") as they allow experienced members (not everybody gets list-moderator...) to moderate the mailinglists? If the Foundation decides. that its mailing list shall rather be administered by volunteers chosen by them than by e.g. office employees, I don't see any problem in that solution. And if these volunteer admins hence moderate or threaten to moderate posts to the lists, they are just using the powers given to them by the Foundation. If serious concerns about the actions of a list admin are raised, they will reach the foundation and the foundation *might* if they deem it appropriate consider the removal of the administrator functions of the user in question. As said, this is quite unlikely, as the list administrators are without exception distinguished users. So I see no problem whatsoever with having non-foundation-employees administering this list.
Michael
Uh, if you mark something as "off-list" you should maybe also not send it to the list afterwards. Sorry for having continued this thread, I shall shut up now.
On 9/5/06, Michael Bimmler mbimmler@gmail.com wrote:
Off-list-reply, following Aphaia's plea
On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Michael Bimmler wrote:
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
Well, okay, so you can handle your questions with Brad and everything is fine. Why do send them to the list then?
I don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for business purposes.
I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact, it's the other way around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for purely political reasons.
It might rather be for on-/offtopic reasons...
I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African languages and other programs, but a business oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community moderator concept here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee threatens to moderate or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues potentially created for the foundation. Issues I would rather not deal with.
I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the foundation may get legal problems (my translation of your word "issue") as they allow experienced members (not everybody gets list-moderator...) to moderate the mailinglists? If the Foundation decides. that its mailing list shall rather be administered by volunteers chosen by them than by e.g. office employees, I don't see any problem in that solution. And if these volunteer admins hence moderate or threaten to moderate posts to the lists, they are just using the powers given to them by the Foundation. If serious concerns about the actions of a list admin are raised, they will reach the foundation and the foundation *might* if they deem it appropriate consider the removal of the administrator functions of the user in question. As said, this is quite unlikely, as the list administrators are without exception distinguished users. So I see no problem whatsoever with having non-foundation-employees administering this list.
Michael
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org