I was going to call NPG this morning first thing (as a volunteer, to see what could be reasonably done to avert a public battle - our own museum/gallery liaison volunteers can really, really do without a public battle fouling up their ongoing efforts) but was awake all night with a sick child and so I just got up ... has anyone here called yet, as a volunteer? I know Physchim62, who did a lot to get the American Chemical Society working with us, was going to call. Has anyone else?
(I don't hold out much hope for this - the NPG's position has been completely consistent and completely uncooperative for many years.. But it's always worth asking.)
It's reasonably important to avoid discussing the possible legal case, for Dcoetzee's sake, *but* the NPG's lawyers have effectively written a press release read by ten thousand Wikimedians and a million Slashdot readers, that clearly does directly and personally affect a lot of them. I bet it's been more widely read than any intentional press release of theirs has been.
Ideal outcome: PD everything, they welcome a team of our photographers in.
Plausible good outcome: We put up the hi-res images with notes that they are PD in the US but the NPG claims copyright in Europe and releases them under CC-by-sa, and full credit is requested in either case. (Copyleft is not as ideal as PD, but it's plenty good enough for us.) We issue press releases lauding the NPG to the skies and say nice things about them forever.
Another plausible good outcome: They welcome a team of our photographers in. Careful supervision, etc. Then we can do stuff like infrared shots as well (which can show interesting things about a painting's restoration history).
Awful outcome: great big legal battle.
Bad outcome: mainstream press about this at all, really. The NPG probably doesn't see it that way.
Any other possible outcomes to list?
Additional data point: the NPG has removed the hi-res versions. Thus, the Wikimedia copies are the *only* copies currently available.
This makes it actually culturally important for us to keep them up!
- d.
I'm not sure who is the appropriate person to contact the gallery to address this issue, but I hope that it can be done as tactfully and non-confrontationally as possible, and I trust that there will have been consultation with the Office before any comments of a legal nature are made.
Newyorkbrad
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 8:27 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
I was going to call NPG this morning first thing (as a volunteer, to see what could be reasonably done to avert a public battle - our own museum/gallery liaison volunteers can really, really do without a public battle fouling up their ongoing efforts) but was awake all night with a sick child and so I just got up ... has anyone here called yet, as a volunteer? I know Physchim62, who did a lot to get the American Chemical Society working with us, was going to call. Has anyone else?
(I don't hold out much hope for this - the NPG's position has been completely consistent and completely uncooperative for many years.. But it's always worth asking.)
It's reasonably important to avoid discussing the possible legal case, for Dcoetzee's sake, *but* the NPG's lawyers have effectively written a press release read by ten thousand Wikimedians and a million Slashdot readers, that clearly does directly and personally affect a lot of them. I bet it's been more widely read than any intentional press release of theirs has been.
Ideal outcome: PD everything, they welcome a team of our photographers in.
Plausible good outcome: We put up the hi-res images with notes that they are PD in the US but the NPG claims copyright in Europe and releases them under CC-by-sa, and full credit is requested in either case. (Copyleft is not as ideal as PD, but it's plenty good enough for us.) We issue press releases lauding the NPG to the skies and say nice things about them forever.
Another plausible good outcome: They welcome a team of our photographers in. Careful supervision, etc. Then we can do stuff like infrared shots as well (which can show interesting things about a painting's restoration history).
Awful outcome: great big legal battle.
Bad outcome: mainstream press about this at all, really. The NPG probably doesn't see it that way.
Any other possible outcomes to list?
Additional data point: the NPG has removed the hi-res versions. Thus, the Wikimedia copies are the *only* copies currently available.
This makes it actually culturally important for us to keep them up!
- d.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi,
From your text I get the impression that it is something special that we put
annotations about a work with the digital copy. I would argue that this is something that we should do with all our material. The annotations that exist about a work, the references to the GLAM (galleries libraries archives museums) are as important to us as they are to anyone else. It is in the annotations, the rreferences to the GLAM where the original can be found that provides the provenance that gives assurance that the image is a truthful depiction of whatever it is supposed to be.
These annotations are as important as citations in our Wikipedia articles.
The copyright notices are relatively important but not relevant from a content point of view./ Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/13 David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com
I was going to call NPG this morning first thing (as a volunteer, to see what could be reasonably done to avert a public battle - our own museum/gallery liaison volunteers can really, really do without a public battle fouling up their ongoing efforts) but was awake all night with a sick child and so I just got up ... has anyone here called yet, as a volunteer? I know Physchim62, who did a lot to get the American Chemical Society working with us, was going to call. Has anyone else?
(I don't hold out much hope for this - the NPG's position has been completely consistent and completely uncooperative for many years.. But it's always worth asking.)
It's reasonably important to avoid discussing the possible legal case, for Dcoetzee's sake, *but* the NPG's lawyers have effectively written a press release read by ten thousand Wikimedians and a million Slashdot readers, that clearly does directly and personally affect a lot of them. I bet it's been more widely read than any intentional press release of theirs has been.
Ideal outcome: PD everything, they welcome a team of our photographers in.
Plausible good outcome: We put up the hi-res images with notes that they are PD in the US but the NPG claims copyright in Europe and releases them under CC-by-sa, and full credit is requested in either case. (Copyleft is not as ideal as PD, but it's plenty good enough for us.) We issue press releases lauding the NPG to the skies and say nice things about them forever.
Another plausible good outcome: They welcome a team of our photographers in. Careful supervision, etc. Then we can do stuff like infrared shots as well (which can show interesting things about a painting's restoration history).
Awful outcome: great big legal battle.
Bad outcome: mainstream press about this at all, really. The NPG probably doesn't see it that way.
Any other possible outcomes to list?
Additional data point: the NPG has removed the hi-res versions. Thus, the Wikimedia copies are the *only* copies currently available.
This makes it actually culturally important for us to keep them up!
- d.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
2009/7/13 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
From your text I get the impression that it is something special that we put annotations about a work with the digital copy. I would argue that this is something that we should do with all our material. The annotations that exist about a work, the references to the GLAM (galleries libraries archives museums) are as important to us as they are to anyone else. It is in the annotations, the rreferences to the GLAM where the original can be found that provides the provenance that gives assurance that the image is a truthful depiction of whatever it is supposed to be. These annotations are as important as citations in our Wikipedia articles.
Absolutely. But if we make a point of it to them that would undoubtedly help.
(c.f. why image restorers should properly be credited, even if their work does not create a new copyright - it's part of the relevant history of the image and correctly informs the viewer as to its provenance.)
- d.
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 8:27 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Plausible good outcome: We put up the hi-res images with notes that they are PD in the US but the NPG claims copyright in Europe and releases them under CC-by-sa, and full credit is requested in either case. (Copyleft is not as ideal as PD, but it's plenty good enough for us.) We issue press releases lauding the NPG to the skies and say nice things about them forever.
Noting the disputed status of the images has already been done, although perhaps the template used could have some more information to make it clear that the legal implications vary by jurisdiction.
Nathan
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org