Hoi,
Anna I have one question for you. You say that "you would not frame the
challenge as I do". How would you characterise the inherent diversity issue
of the WMF that is centred around how it spends its money and where its
attention goes?
Thanks,
GerardM
On 26 June 2017 at 01:57, Anna Stillwell <astillwell(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
Gerard,
In line.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
I have some notions about language and if anything there are some things
that we can do technically but with over 280 languages technique will not
serve us well. At best it will be a partial solution.
Everything is a partial solution. The complete picture emerges as we
explore the problem.
When you look at the
team of Amir, they are doing splendid work and I do salute their latest
effort where they now support collation for a language ahead of its
support
in standards.
I agree. I think their work is splendid too. I’m glad to hear you share
that view.
The problem with Wikipedia is that when we want
to grow content in a
small
language, we have to forget much of what English
Wikipedia is, what the
bigger Wikipedias are and certainly not get stuck in academia.
You’re saying that one size does not fit all. Not by a long shot. If that
is what you’re saying, I agree.
When we do
not have articles for their cities, important people when we largely do
not
even know them in Wikidata, the first thing is
for them to be bold and
write stubs, stubs that are connected. Stubs for their current affairs
as I
described in my blog for lessons around
newspapers and Wikipedia [1].
Ok. So we don’t have important knowledge about people and places in other
languages. Agreed. We have far less of that. I think we should have far
more. If that’s not what you are saying, please correct me.
But then I don’t yet understand what you are saying about stubs. Are you
saying “they" should make those stubs? Who are the people that should make
the stubs and who are you addressing this comment to? I’m just wondering
whether it is something that I can even address or whether your insight is
best addressed by other movement players.
The point is that it is not about knowledge
delivery. We do not have the
pertinent knowledge; it is first about knowledge acquisition. Sources may
be required for English Wikipedia but when you want to nurture a project
in
its infancy, we do not need the overhead. It is
detrimental to primary
requirements. Primacy is to be given to content in the first place,
interlinked content.
Ok. We don’t have the knowledge yet. We need to get it. I agree. Then there
is an issue with sources. I don’t know the exact issue that you are
pointing to with sources, but I agree that the first barrier is sources. I
also think a lot of people throughout the movement conversation would
agree, as I’ve heard them talking about it non-stop. People don’t know how
to solve that problem yet, but there seems to be growing consensus that
this is a problem we should collectively attempt to solve.
I can’t be sure that I understood the rest of your point. I fear that it
was lost in translation and I apologize in advance that my Dutch is
non-existent.
We have to appreciate what it is what we can achieve. For instance, the
Bangla Wikipedia has been the biggest resource in modern Bangla for a
number of years now. Bangla is spoken by a few hundred million people.
This can be achieved for many languages and we have to consider the state
of a language on the Internet and nurture the necessary effort.
I find nothing objectionable in this statement. I also agree that we have
to appreciate what we can achieve. Sometimes I fear that across the
movement half of us think about as long as an annual plan, the other half
like to dream in the far out. There is a lot of mid-range planning in
between that keeps me up at night.
Thanks for helping us all understand more about the Bangla community. I
agree that serving a language community of a few hundred million people
well is important. Bengla has over 250M speakers and is the seventh most
spoken language in the world [citation needed].
We can leverage Wikidata for wiki links, red links and even black links.
This is the lowest hanging fruit for making Wikidata more relevant. I
have
written about it before [2]. Including Wikidata
in search results will
make
search more robust [3]. Once we start making this
connection between
links
and Wikidata, it becomes easier to assess one
aspect of quality because
articles on the same subject share similar links.
Anna, my point is that so far English Wikipedia has been given
preferential
treatment and all the other projects have
suffered as a consequence.
I hear that you care about other projects as much as you do English
Wikipedia. That is clear. I wouldn’t frame the challenge the way you do,
but that does not preclude me from listening to your view.
In the analysis of all of the data at a very preliminary stage, it looks
like the top themes that are emerging from the conversation are "global
movement" and "healthy communities". That information is still not
integrated with the information from New Voices and Experts, but those are
the ideas that have emerged from our current communities. Given that
emerging consensus, we may well be working toward more of what you care
about.
Another point is that we should not impose on the
other projects with an
English Wikipedia vision.
No argument from me. I agree.
This is one aspect that is not acknowledged nor
understood by my peers as far as I am aware and, I know that my position
is not welcomed by most if at all.
I find this confusing to hear, Gerard. I hear this view a good deal and it
appears to be an emerging consensus among our contributors and affiliates.
I welcome your position.
Thanks,
GerardM
[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2017/05/teaching-
wikipedia-using-local-news.html
[2]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2016/01/wikipedia-
lowest-hanging-fruit-from.html
[3]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2017/06/wikipedia-
sister-projects-in-search.html
On 25 June 2017 at 22:33, Anna Stillwell <astillwell(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> Gerard,
>
> Happy Sunday to you. I hope you're well.
>
> I'm curious... have you heard one of the ideas emerging in discussions
is
> "beyond the encyclopedia"... an
idea that includes and goes beyond the
> encyclopedia? You'd likely resonate with the idea. It describes the
> multiplicity of what we already are and the desire to grow that.
>
> Additionally, we are hearing from "New Voices" that we can't expect
to
> deliver knowledge the same way everywhere. Clearly, we are going to
have
to
> mix it up. You might enjoy some of the insights coming out of New
Voices.
They are
published on the meta page as soon as each event ends and as
quickly as they can coherently write it up.
There has also been a good deal of discussion around language (and the
subsequent technical need to explore machine learning for predictive,
contextual search and natural language processing to support better
translation).
Most of the ideas I've mentioned here are housed under "Truly global
movement" | "Community health" | or "Augmented age". Augmented
age is a
technical vision which increasingly seems like the technical means to
support some other end(s).
You might be surprised where the discussions are going. It's built by
your
peers. We offered the resources and structure and
we realize that there
are
constraints and biases that come with that.
We've tried to account for
our
> biases (the foundation's and the movement's) with entire streams of
work:
New
voices, for example. That was intentional in the design.
I've responded here to let you know that you are not alone. Your peers
have
> voiced these issues and they are heavily influencing the discussion and
> everyone is listening.
>
> Warmly,
> /a
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > The one serious flaw of the current practice is that English
Wikipedia
> > receives more attention than it
deserves based on its merits[1]. This
> bias
> > can be found in any and all areas. There is for instance a huge
> educational
> > effort going on for English and there is no strategy known,
developed,
>
tried to use education to grow a Wikipedia from nothing to 100.000
> articles.. the number considered to be necessary by some to have a
viable
Wikipedia. When you consider research it is English Wikipedia because
otherwise it will not get published [2].
A less serious flaw is that the WMF is an indifferent custodian of
projects
> other than Wikipedia. When it provides no service to Wikipedia like
> Wikisource, its intrinsic value is not realised to the potential
readers
> > that are made available. There is no staff dedicated to these
projects
and
> there is no research into its value.
>
> The angst for the community means that there is hardly any
collaboration
> between the different Wikipedias. Mostly the
"solutions" of English
> Wikipedia are imposed. There are a few well trodden paths that
habitually
> get attention. When it comes to diversity,
the gender gap is well
served
> > but the global south is not. A lot of weight is given to a data
driven
>
approach but there is hardly enough data relevant to the global south
in
> > English Wikipedia to make such an approach viable.
> >
> > Yes, I have tried to get some attention for these issues in the
process
so
far but <grin> as bringer of the bad news I
am happy that it is the
message
> and not the messenger who is killed </grin>.
>
> Please tell me I am wrong and proof it by using more than opinions.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
> [1] less than 30% of the world populace and less than 50% of the WMF
> traffic.
> [2] comment by a professor whose university does a lot of studies on
> Wikipedia..
>
> On 24 June 2017 at 12:33, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Strainu <strainu10(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > 2017-06-23 23:48 GMT+03:00 Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com>om>:
> > > > > Could you elaborate on the benefits of this timetable change
for
>
people
> > > who
> > > > are not involved with affiliates?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Starting from this assumption, and considering the fact that even
the
> > > > most active wikimedians (not involved in a chapter) have real
life
> >
> commitments that do not allow them to follow this process
carefully,
> > > > it is obvious that the main responsibility of the team that
> > > > coordinates the process should have been outreach. In my
particular
> >
> geographic area, Track B contributors were engaged with only 2
weeks
> > > > prior to the end of the last cycle, which is hardly enough time
to
> >
> read, understand, and think about the vast quantity of material
> > > available in the strategy process.
> > >
> > >
> > > I am an active Wikimedia not involved in a Chapter. In Round 1, I
was
> > > pretty active, and in the Russian Wikivoyage we collected quite
some
> > > feedback and translated it into
English. It was essentially
ignored.
> None
> > > of us participated in Round 2 since we thought it is a waste of
time.
>
Round
> > 2 was organized in the same way as Round 1 (many discussions opened
i n
> > > different places, meaning there is no possibility to really discuss
> > > anything, merely to leave one's opinion). I have corresponding
pages
> on 3
> > > projects on my watchlists (with is 15 pages, and this is a lot),
but
I
> have
> > not seen in these discussions anything new not said before in Round
1.
> > May
> > > be smth useful would come out from other tracks, but I am not
really
> > > looking forward to Track B Round 3
either. I believe it is
completely
> > > failed, and individual
contributors did not have a chance to form a
> > > considated opinion. The message for me is essentially: If you want
to
be
> > heard, find a chapter or a thematic organization first. I hope the
next
> > > process will be organized differently in 10 years from now.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Yaroslav
> > > _______________________________________________
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