In a message dated 5/1/2008 2:05:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wiki.ral315@gmail.com writes:
And certainly, logistically, there's a serious problem. A flight from New York to Los Angeles, for example, would cost anywhere from $300-500 round-trip. And driving would be out of the question for most; that's a 2,700 mile, 40-hour drive.
Just some quick stats
Distance from San Francisco to Boston = 4339 km Distance from London to Warsaw = 1447 km
How many chapters are squeezed into the shorter distance?
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
2008/5/1 daniwo59@aol.com:
In a message dated 5/1/2008 2:05:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wiki.ral315@gmail.com writes:
And certainly, logistically, there's a serious problem. A flight from New York to Los Angeles, for example, would cost anywhere from $300-500 round-trip. And driving would be out of the question for most; that's a 2,700 mile, 40-hour drive.
Just some quick stats
Distance from San Francisco to Boston = 4339 km Distance from London to Warsaw = 1447 km
How many chapters are squeezed into the shorter distance?
But the cost of travel by plane is similar around USD 500 - and practically - time of travel as well if you take into consideration time spent to get to airport and time spent in custom, check-in etc. And believe me - the difference between London and Warsaw is much higher than between LA and NY in terms of language, habits, level of personal income etc. We are not going to travel across Europe and US on horses, so the distance in miles is not so important :-)
The distance between Moscow and Vladivostok is 10K km. May we have 83 chapters please?
Cheers Yaroslav
In a message dated 5/1/2008 2:05:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wiki.ral315@gmail.com writes:
And certainly, logistically, there's a serious problem. A flight from New York to Los Angeles, for example, would cost anywhere from $300-500 round-trip. And driving would be out of the question for most; that's a 2,700 mile, 40-hour drive.
Just some quick stats
Distance from San Francisco to Boston = 4339 km Distance from London to Warsaw = 1447 km
How many chapters are squeezed into the shorter distance?
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
The distance between Moscow and Vladivostok is 10K km. May we have 83 chapters please?
You should have regional chapters. Actually, I am not sure would it be possible to have (in a developed stage) a functional chapter at the level of a Russian republic in the eastern parts of Russia.
However, I suppose that significant majority of Russian Wikimedians are grouped now around/between Moscow and St. Peterburg. So, there is a lot of sense to make first WM Russia and then to federalize it.
Here are a couple of my notes about chapter organization.
While I was thinking about the most efficient way how to organize WM Serbia as its president (I am not president of WM RS anymore) at different cities in Serbia, I had the next situation:
- The biggest cities in Serbia, after Belgrade, are Nis and Novi Sad (metro area of each of them is between 200 and 300K). Novi Sad is 80km distant, while Nis is 200km distant. We need something more than an hour to reach Novi Sad by car and something more than 2 hours to reach Nis (there is a highway Belgrade-Nis and not finished highway Belgrade-Novi Sad). By bus it is 2 hours for Novi Sad and 3 hours for Nis.
- While cars are often in Serbia, they are not so often as in Western Europe or USA. I think that from 10-15 Wikimedians who participated in our meetings regularly we had only 2-3 cars. So, much more reasonable option is to go by bus.
- With a good car in Germany it is possible to pass much bigger distances than 200km in 3 hours. So, effectively, Serbia is "bigger" than maybe Benelux and western part of Germany together (there are places in Serbia for which is needed 7 hours of driving from Belgrade).
- While it is often to see some people from Novi Sad in Belgrade and vice versa, it is not something which is done at a regular basis. I may expect to see one person from Nis who is traveling relatively regularly -- a couple of time per year. So, more or less, our coordination with people out of Belgrade metro area was Internet and telephone based.
- This implies that if WM RS wants to have offices in Belgrade, Nis and Novi Sad, Wikimedians from those areas need to have a lot of autonomy. At least, they would need their own bank account and a person in charge for that account. When they have a bank account, it would be normal that they organize their own activities, of course, in coordination with the rest of WM RS. But, speaking generally, this is a lot of autonomy. The next level of autonomy are separate organizations.
- BTW, we started as Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro. We had two members from Montenegro, but only one of our members (who is living, btw, in France) went to Montenegro partially as a Wikimedian, but he didn't success to meet then only one of our members.
So, this is the story about the organization of one chapter which has transport problems. While I am sure that WM NL chapter doesn't have such problems, even Netherlands has approximately same size as Serbia and around three times more inhabitants. However, I am wondering how much members WM DE has from the eastern part of Germany, south of Berlin. The same is for WM FR and central-south parts of France, as well as for WM IT and southern parts Italia, including Sicily (AFAIK, Sardinia is much less inhabited). (For people from USA, US government institutions often compares size of Serbia with the size of Kentucky.)
My girlfriend is an architect. She is projecting bank offices all over Serbia (no, it is not so good position, like it is at the West). Banks are able to make their organization very effective in the most parts of Serbia. They have Internet in all of their offices, they have regular real-life communication. But, while Wikimedia is able to offer good salaries to a couple of staff, it is not able to offer any penny to a Wikimedian from one 50.000 inhabitants big town in Serbia, 5 hours of driving distant from Belgrade.
Even a chapter in relatively small country (distance of 7 hours of driving a car is not a lot) like Serbia is has such amount of difficulties in organization. OK, it is not impossible to solve them. However, distances like New York--small town in Illinois or small town in Moscow--small town in Volgograd oblast -- are so big that it is not possible to make a functional organization. As I said, I really don't think that it is possible to have a functional organization inside of some bigger provinces of some big countries.
Milos Rancic wrote:
So, this is the story about the organization of one chapter which has transport problems. While I am sure that WM NL chapter doesn't have such problems, even Netherlands has approximately same size as Serbia and around three times more inhabitants. However, I am wondering how much members WM DE has from the eastern part of Germany, south of Berlin. The same is for WM FR and central-south parts of France, as well as for WM IT and southern parts Italia, including Sicily (AFAIK, Sardinia is much less inhabited).
It is not easy. Meetings in France are rather limited. Most of them took place in Paris, and one in Lyon (second biggest city). But only few members of WM France are actually from Paris, which means there is no "core" in Paris to organize things.
The only "core" we do have is actually in Toulouse ;-) (extreme south west).
We also maintain a "map of membership" on our internal wiki. It should reveal pretty useful in the future.
Ant
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
We also maintain a "map of membership" on our internal wiki. It should reveal pretty useful in the future.
We made a map of membership for our last General Assembly (which was quite recent, so the map is pretty up-to-date):
http://www.wikimedia.ch/images/2/2b/Annual_report_GA_2008.pdf (page 3)
Obviously, our core is in Zurich with some members in the regions of the other big cities (= Basle and Berne) and small groups in Romandie and Ticino and Grischun (some even in the Rhaeto-Romanic part)
There are also wide gaps, especially in the 'centre of the map', but with all fairness I should probably point out that there are some mountains (called 'the Alps') standing around there...
Michael
And America, of course, is not the only country terribly unsuited to a national chapter. As noted Russia, but also Canada, Brazil, Australia, India and so on make national chapters implausible. Vancouver to Halifax is a 4500 km *flight* - even splitting the difference and meeting in Winnipeg would mean also every Canadian editor would have to fly (perhaps 3% of the population lives within a 10 hour drive) Even provincial chapters in Canada would be a terrible burdern - Thunder Bay to Toronto (presumably where we'd have Ontario meetings) is a mere 1383 km drive along what are probably the worst maintained roads south of 60 (you can drive it in ~16 hours if you're good at patching a gas tank). The flights are only 2 hours and $415 - this is a nontrivial barrier for a lot of the wikipedia types (I certainly couldn't afford that).
A "general solution" for excessively large (and especially excessively large, empty countries) is really needed here, so let's not focus too much on the American case.
WilyD
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
Here are a couple of my notes about chapter organization.
While I was thinking about the most efficient way how to organize WM Serbia as its president (I am not president of WM RS anymore) at different cities in Serbia, I had the next situation:
- The biggest cities in Serbia, after Belgrade, are Nis and Novi Sad
(metro area of each of them is between 200 and 300K). Novi Sad is 80km distant, while Nis is 200km distant. We need something more than an hour to reach Novi Sad by car and something more than 2 hours to reach Nis (there is a highway Belgrade-Nis and not finished highway Belgrade-Novi Sad). By bus it is 2 hours for Novi Sad and 3 hours for Nis.
- While cars are often in Serbia, they are not so often as in Western
Europe or USA. I think that from 10-15 Wikimedians who participated in our meetings regularly we had only 2-3 cars. So, much more reasonable option is to go by bus.
- With a good car in Germany it is possible to pass much bigger
distances than 200km in 3 hours. So, effectively, Serbia is "bigger" than maybe Benelux and western part of Germany together (there are places in Serbia for which is needed 7 hours of driving from Belgrade).
- While it is often to see some people from Novi Sad in Belgrade and
vice versa, it is not something which is done at a regular basis. I may expect to see one person from Nis who is traveling relatively regularly -- a couple of time per year. So, more or less, our coordination with people out of Belgrade metro area was Internet and telephone based.
- This implies that if WM RS wants to have offices in Belgrade, Nis
and Novi Sad, Wikimedians from those areas need to have a lot of autonomy. At least, they would need their own bank account and a person in charge for that account. When they have a bank account, it would be normal that they organize their own activities, of course, in coordination with the rest of WM RS. But, speaking generally, this is a lot of autonomy. The next level of autonomy are separate organizations.
- BTW, we started as Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro. We had two
members from Montenegro, but only one of our members (who is living, btw, in France) went to Montenegro partially as a Wikimedian, but he didn't success to meet then only one of our members.
So, this is the story about the organization of one chapter which has transport problems. While I am sure that WM NL chapter doesn't have such problems, even Netherlands has approximately same size as Serbia and around three times more inhabitants. However, I am wondering how much members WM DE has from the eastern part of Germany, south of Berlin. The same is for WM FR and central-south parts of France, as well as for WM IT and southern parts Italia, including Sicily (AFAIK, Sardinia is much less inhabited). (For people from USA, US government institutions often compares size of Serbia with the size of Kentucky.)
My girlfriend is an architect. She is projecting bank offices all over Serbia (no, it is not so good position, like it is at the West). Banks are able to make their organization very effective in the most parts of Serbia. They have Internet in all of their offices, they have regular real-life communication. But, while Wikimedia is able to offer good salaries to a couple of staff, it is not able to offer any penny to a Wikimedian from one 50.000 inhabitants big town in Serbia, 5 hours of driving distant from Belgrade.
Even a chapter in relatively small country (distance of 7 hours of driving a car is not a lot) like Serbia is has such amount of difficulties in organization. OK, it is not impossible to solve them. However, distances like New York--small town in Illinois or small town in Moscow--small town in Volgograd oblast -- are so big that it is not possible to make a functional organization. As I said, I really don't think that it is possible to have a functional organization inside of some bigger provinces of some big countries.
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Hoi, A chapter is a legal organisation. With such an organisation in place, there is nothing to stop people from organising locally within the framework of this orangisation. Having many organisations does not help, it is a drag. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Wily D wilydoppelganger@gmail.com wrote:
And America, of course, is not the only country terribly unsuited to a national chapter. As noted Russia, but also Canada, Brazil, Australia, India and so on make national chapters implausible. Vancouver to Halifax is a 4500 km *flight* - even splitting the difference and meeting in Winnipeg would mean also every Canadian editor would have to fly (perhaps 3% of the population lives within a 10 hour drive) Even provincial chapters in Canada would be a terrible burdern - Thunder Bay to Toronto (presumably where we'd have Ontario meetings) is a mere 1383 km drive along what are probably the worst maintained roads south of 60 (you can drive it in ~16 hours if you're good at patching a gas tank). The flights are only 2 hours and $415 - this is a nontrivial barrier for a lot of the wikipedia types (I certainly couldn't afford that).
A "general solution" for excessively large (and especially excessively large, empty countries) is really needed here, so let's not focus too much on the American case.
WilyD
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
Here are a couple of my notes about chapter organization.
While I was thinking about the most efficient way how to organize WM Serbia as its president (I am not president of WM RS anymore) at different cities in Serbia, I had the next situation:
- The biggest cities in Serbia, after Belgrade, are Nis and Novi Sad
(metro area of each of them is between 200 and 300K). Novi Sad is 80km distant, while Nis is 200km distant. We need something more than an hour to reach Novi Sad by car and something more than 2 hours to reach Nis (there is a highway Belgrade-Nis and not finished highway Belgrade-Novi Sad). By bus it is 2 hours for Novi Sad and 3 hours for Nis.
- While cars are often in Serbia, they are not so often as in Western
Europe or USA. I think that from 10-15 Wikimedians who participated in our meetings regularly we had only 2-3 cars. So, much more reasonable option is to go by bus.
- With a good car in Germany it is possible to pass much bigger
distances than 200km in 3 hours. So, effectively, Serbia is "bigger" than maybe Benelux and western part of Germany together (there are places in Serbia for which is needed 7 hours of driving from Belgrade).
- While it is often to see some people from Novi Sad in Belgrade and
vice versa, it is not something which is done at a regular basis. I may expect to see one person from Nis who is traveling relatively regularly -- a couple of time per year. So, more or less, our coordination with people out of Belgrade metro area was Internet and telephone based.
- This implies that if WM RS wants to have offices in Belgrade, Nis
and Novi Sad, Wikimedians from those areas need to have a lot of autonomy. At least, they would need their own bank account and a person in charge for that account. When they have a bank account, it would be normal that they organize their own activities, of course, in coordination with the rest of WM RS. But, speaking generally, this is a lot of autonomy. The next level of autonomy are separate organizations.
- BTW, we started as Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro. We had two
members from Montenegro, but only one of our members (who is living, btw, in France) went to Montenegro partially as a Wikimedian, but he didn't success to meet then only one of our members.
So, this is the story about the organization of one chapter which has transport problems. While I am sure that WM NL chapter doesn't have such problems, even Netherlands has approximately same size as Serbia and around three times more inhabitants. However, I am wondering how much members WM DE has from the eastern part of Germany, south of Berlin. The same is for WM FR and central-south parts of France, as well as for WM IT and southern parts Italia, including Sicily (AFAIK, Sardinia is much less inhabited). (For people from USA, US government institutions often compares size of Serbia with the size of Kentucky.)
My girlfriend is an architect. She is projecting bank offices all over Serbia (no, it is not so good position, like it is at the West). Banks are able to make their organization very effective in the most parts of Serbia. They have Internet in all of their offices, they have regular real-life communication. But, while Wikimedia is able to offer good salaries to a couple of staff, it is not able to offer any penny to a Wikimedian from one 50.000 inhabitants big town in Serbia, 5 hours of driving distant from Belgrade.
Even a chapter in relatively small country (distance of 7 hours of driving a car is not a lot) like Serbia is has such amount of difficulties in organization. OK, it is not impossible to solve them. However, distances like New York--small town in Illinois or small town in Moscow--small town in Volgograd oblast -- are so big that it is not possible to make a functional organization. As I said, I really don't think that it is possible to have a functional organization inside of some bigger provinces of some big countries.
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On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Wily D wilydoppelganger@gmail.com wrote:
And America, of course, is not the only country terribly unsuited to a national chapter. As noted Russia, but also Canada, Brazil, Australia, India and so on make national chapters implausible.
I disagree.
Vancouver to Halifax is a 4500 km *flight* - even splitting the difference and meeting in Winnipeg would mean also every Canadian editor would have to fly (perhaps 3% of the population lives within a 10 hour drive) Even provincial chapters in Canada would be a terrible burdern - Thunder Bay to Toronto (presumably where we'd have Ontario meetings) is a mere 1383 km drive along what are probably the worst maintained roads south of 60 (you can drive it in ~16 hours if you're good at patching a gas tank). The flights are only 2 hours and $415 - this is a nontrivial barrier for a lot of the wikipedia types (I certainly couldn't afford that).
A "general solution" for excessively large (and especially excessively large, empty countries) is really needed here, so let's not focus too much on the American case.
See, that's interesting. Because as far as I know, Australia now has a national chapter, Russia has just finished putting together their bylaws and they have gone for approval to the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation, Canada and India have mostly talked about national chapters in their ongoing efforts about creating a chapter. Argentina, which is another rather large country, has also a national chapter, and they, from the start integrated the idea that there could be regional "sections".
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that in the Wikimedia case, the US is unique not because it is large, but rather because the Foundation is there to start with. Let us try and imagine for a moment that the Wikimedia Foundation was not a US based organisation, but a... Andorran based one. Would people in the US start with metro-area chapters, state-based chapters, regional sections? Or with a national one?
I thin it's actually worth thinking about. Maybe we could also look at other international organisations and learn from their own organisation within the US. Andrew gave a few hints about Girls scouts etc. What is the reality? How do world-wide present organisations work within the US? Red Cross, Greenpeace, SOS children villages etc? Do they have one national organisation and then more targeted sections that act within the national organisation? Are they a constellation of many independant organisations?
Any help on this truly welcome.
Delphine
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that in the Wikimedia case, the US is unique not because it is large, but rather because the Foundation is there to start with. Let us try and imagine for a moment that the Wikimedia Foundation was not a US based organisation, but a... Andorran based one. Would people in the US start with metro-area chapters, state-based chapters, regional sections? Or with a national one?
I thin it's actually worth thinking about.
For all intents and purposes, the WMF -is- 'Wikimedia US'. This may be a "legacy" issue in terms of the WMF being founded here, but the fact stands that such an organization is already in place.
It would not seem useful at this point to found a whole separate organization. If it is felt necessary to have a virtual chapter for completeness reasons, then I would support just designating Cary Bass "Representative of Wikimedia US" as an adjunct to his "Volunteer Coordinator" role, and have done with this question.
A national chapter can exist for legal reasons, and it can exist for organizational reasons. In some countries the organizational activities will be centralized, and in others there will be autonomous affiliates. But it is clear that in the US the legal reasons for a chapter are already taken care of.
Thanks, Pharos
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
See, that's interesting. Because as far as I know, Australia now has a national chapter, Russia has just finished putting together their bylaws and they have gone for approval to the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation, Canada and India have mostly talked about national chapters in their ongoing efforts about creating a chapter. Argentina, which is another rather large country, has also a national chapter, and they, from the start integrated the idea that there could be regional "sections".
A big issue that is being overlooked is that these organizational efforts are volunteer-based. Volunteers are going to self-organize in a manner that seems most reasonable to them. Canada is the perfect example of a country that I felt should not pursue a national chapter, but instead should pursue provincial ones. Part of my reasoning was the large size of the country which makes travel prohibitive, but another was the french/english language barrier that tends to follow provincial boundaries. Of course as an outsider, what I would expect and what becomes the reality are two different things. When I posed the suggestion to the Canadian chapter steering committee, it wasn't something they wanted to consider in the least.
The important point is that volunteers are going to self organize in a way that is good for them. We, as outsiders, might suggest that many countries try subnational organizations first. However, the people who are doing the organizing are going to do things as they see fit. Canada and Russia want to pursue national chapters (and that's perfectly fine!), but much of the organizational work in the US has been locally and regionally based. Volunteers know what is best for them, and it makes little sense for us to try to shoehorn them into a model that isn't right. The more flexibility we allow, the more success people are going to have in more countries.
--Andrew Whitworth
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@gmail.com wrote:
A big issue that is being overlooked is that these organizational efforts are volunteer-based. Volunteers are going to self-organize in a manner that seems most reasonable to them. Canada is the perfect example of a country that I felt should not pursue a national chapter, but instead should pursue provincial ones. Part of my reasoning was the large size of the country which makes travel prohibitive, but another was the french/english language barrier that tends to follow provincial boundaries. Of course as an outsider, what I would expect and what becomes the reality are two different things. When I posed the suggestion to the Canadian chapter steering committee, it wasn't something they wanted to consider in the least.
The important point is that volunteers are going to self organize in a way that is good for them. We, as outsiders, might suggest that many countries try subnational organizations first. However, the people who are doing the organizing are going to do things as they see fit. Canada and Russia want to pursue national chapters (and that's perfectly fine!), but much of the organizational work in the US has been locally and regionally based. Volunteers know what is best for them, and it makes little sense for us to try to shoehorn them into a model that isn't right. The more flexibility we allow, the more success people are going to have in more countries.
I agree. A big problem in perception is a way of building the organization. While it matters what WMF needs, much more important is what do Wikimedians in some area need. Building a dysfunctional organization just because it looks nice at a paper is not so wise.
I afraid that WM Russia and WM Canada will be equivalents of WM Moscow and WM South Ontario (the last one will have more contacts with Wikimedians from Illinois than with Wikimedians from Vancouver) -- if they don't start to work immediately on federalization of their chapters.
Note, also, that logistical equivalents for European chapters meeting will be their national chapters meetings. Even we will have in the near future WM Russia and WM Canada which function well, it will be obvious that those chapters will be much more like "European chapters" than, let's say, WM NL or even WM DE.
I afraid that WM Russia and WM Canada will be equivalents of WM Moscow and WM South Ontario (the last one will have more contacts with Wikimedians from Illinois than with Wikimedians from Vancouver) -- if they don't start to work immediately on federalization of their chapters.
That's not correct actually. Of 10 founders of the Chapter, at least two are from Siberia, one from the North, and two or more from St-Petersburg. I think the diversity is fairly well represented. The last national wiki-conference was held in St-Petersburg, not in Moscow.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(For people from USA, US government institutions often compares size of Serbia with the size of Kentucky.)
Hm. I am always mixing Kentucky with Connecticut :) Kentucky is much bigger than Serbia.
On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
(For people from USA, US government institutions often compares size of Serbia with the size of Kentucky.)
Hm. I am always mixing Kentucky with Connecticut :) Kentucky is much bigger than Serbia.
Hm... I realized now that I am wrong again :) Serbia is somewhat lesser than Kentucky, and of approximate size of South Carolina. Sorry for spamming :)
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
The distance between Moscow and Vladivostok is 10K km. May we have 83 chapters please?
First, please don't top-post.
If a critical mass of Wikimedians in Irkutsk wants to organize a local chapter, and believes that there's good reason to organize separately from Wikimedia Russia, we would certainly entertain those arguments. I don't think anyone would seriously draw an analog between Russia and the United States, however.
The population distribution in Russia isn't anything like that of the U.S. or Europe, and the geopolitical and culture considerations are very different. Distance alone isn't a deciding factor, but given the similar geography and climate of the U.S. and Europe, it's a valid point that suggests that Los Angeles and New York may not be well served by a single chapter structure.
Austin
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