Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable. Cheers, Peyer
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM To: Wikimedia Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hoi, No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off line backups/ Thanks, GerardM
On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable. Cheers, Peyer
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM To: Wikimedia Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date: 01/26/17
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download#Where_do_I_get_it....
Seddon
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off line backups/ Thanks, GerardM
On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
wrote:
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable. Cheers, Peyer
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM To: Wikimedia Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
location
where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
01/26/17
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Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of four of them are outside U.S.
Best
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off line backups/ Thanks, GerardM
On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
wrote:
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable. Cheers, Peyer
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM To: Wikimedia Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
location
where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
01/26/17
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I would not consider the dumps to be backups. They are for purposes of mirroring, research, analysis, offline reading and bot processing among other things, but as a backup of our data they fall short. Not only are they not up to the minute but they do not contain private data, as they are intended for public use.
I should note here, though IANAL, that any restrictions that may be placed on US government communications do not of course apply to the private sector. Having said that, I would like also to see offline backups happen, for various reasons.
Ariel
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of four of them are outside U.S.
Best
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off line backups/ Thanks, GerardM
On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
wrote:
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable. Cheers, Peyer
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM To: Wikimedia Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
abroad,
out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration.
I
did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do
understand,
apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
and
the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
location
where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
01/26/17
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On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 at 13:10 Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of four of them are outside U.S.
Well technically that isn't all of the data / a backup ;)
Best
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off line backups/ Thanks, GerardM
On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
wrote:
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable. Cheers, Peyer
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM To: Wikimedia Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
abroad,
out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration.
I
did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do
understand,
apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
and
the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
location
where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of four of them are outside U.S.
No images/files backup outside of US.
On 27 January 2017 at 03:33, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation. To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
A working live backup copy of everything would be a good and important thing.
How easy is it to bring up, say, a fully working copy of en:wp, starting from just backups? Has anyone in WMF tested this? A backup not being a backup until it's been restored and verified.
- d.
I must say the tone of the initial post to this is alarmingly biased and almost misleading. Yes the incoming president has placed a hold on releasing additional material. By no means does that imply that they will start censoring data that they release or in any way affect the private sector. Because the incoming president holds a opposite view as the predecessor it's not surprising that they would want to audit the releases to ensure that the data has a solid factual grounding. I've lost count of the number of research studies and papers that I have seen that when actually placed under a microscope don't hold up. However often the mainstream media takes these and runs with them.
The United States is based on freedom of the press, not freedom of the government. there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor the private sector.
Hi!
Sorry, I had not the intention to write a Wikipedia article that is balanced.
The only thing I tried to describe is some signals in the media that give me concerns.
But I am sorry to say, but your reaction is something what I would call naieve, and biased as well. You are free to think that way, as I think now otherwise.
At this point in time I do not think full censorship will be implemented in the US, but I found partially censorship (government) already very concerning. And it is not just the government but a large number of institutions that should deliver facts, but are no longer allowed to freely publish facts. This also includes universities.
Yes, a government is free to determine what policy it chooses, but that gives no reason to delete everything (read: all data) they do not like. There is a big difference between chosing something different and ordering to censor.
Also this will in the end lead to a situation that this will affect everyone via an indirect route.
Freedom of press already is troubled by attacking media.
I do not say it will happen, but I say we should consider what options we have if it would go wrong in any form we currently do not expect.
Romaine
Op vrijdag 27 januari 2017 heeft John phoenixoverride@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
I must say the tone of the initial post to this is alarmingly biased and almost misleading. Yes the incoming president has placed a hold on releasing additional material. By no means does that imply that they will start censoring data that they release or in any way affect the private sector. Because the incoming president holds a opposite view as the predecessor it's not surprising that they would want to audit the releases to ensure that the data has a solid factual grounding. I've lost count of the number of research studies and papers that I have seen that when actually placed under a microscope don't hold up. However often the mainstream media takes these and runs with them.
The United States is based on freedom of the press, not freedom of the government. there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor the private sector. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe>
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Nathan said "*its only reasonable to consider a move of core **assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric* ...... *This is more challenging than I expected. Where will * *we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset **the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States*"
New Zealand would be a possibility it's showing to be a lot more politically stable, and its neighbor Australia though it does have a greater trust at a political level of the US Government along with a minor notable "Republican trump like" political party but nowhere near the extremism or any significant depth of support.
On 28 January 2017 at 09:12, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I have created a Phabricator task here: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
Pine
Thank you, Pine.
Yes, this is essential. We've avoided the issue in the past, but it's time to have a proper international backup now.
On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 3:52 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I have created a Phabricator task here: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Pine,
Thanks for raising this task. There is more to a disaster plan than just smuggling backups of the content itself out though. The projects have grown to a size now where they cannot be run by some guy out of his garage using a backup; we need to think about how we can move or protect things like server operations, organisational support, and other "real world" activities in the event that it's no longer possible to continue with business as usual.
As I said, I hope that there is a document somewhere internally within the Foundation where they have considered this scenario and how they'd react to it. Now might be a good time for them to dust off that document and review it, just in case.
Cheers, Craig Franklin
On 28 January 2017 at 18:52, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I have created a Phabricator task here: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, Yes. You are right. But having a strategy starts with basics. Having full backups and moving them of the premises. The next part, having a working environment is a next step.
Did you consider what it means when a government takes hold of the domain? How we are to change the registration so that it points to a different IP address. The point is that when we need this we are in real hot water and we have to prepare for this.
So let us have a backup and then take the next step; know where it is and what scenarios there are we want to prepare for. Thanks, GerardM
On 29 January 2017 at 02:51, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
Hi Pine,
Thanks for raising this task. There is more to a disaster plan than just smuggling backups of the content itself out though. The projects have grown to a size now where they cannot be run by some guy out of his garage using a backup; we need to think about how we can move or protect things like server operations, organisational support, and other "real world" activities in the event that it's no longer possible to continue with business as usual.
As I said, I hope that there is a document somewhere internally within the Foundation where they have considered this scenario and how they'd react to it. Now might be a good time for them to dust off that document and review it, just in case.
Cheers, Craig Franklin
On 28 January 2017 at 18:52, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I have created a Phabricator task here: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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It's not so challenging, Nathan -we just need to make a copy of a full backup for each language version, we have and store it in the country/countries where the language is spoken. This avoids any bias in the selection.
Regards, Sir48-Thyge
2017-01-28 2:12 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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In this case I think its more than the projects that need to be protected, there are a lot of resources based in the US that may need to be distributed on a wider base including personal/private data already collected by the WMF. There are already practical challenges ahead with US visa changes including to the interview exemptions for 38 countries. WMF may need to establish an office in a more accessible country and allow for greater costs in travel.
On 28 January 2017 at 17:03, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
It's not so challenging, Nathan -we just need to make a copy of a full backup for each language version, we have and store it in the country/countries where the language is spoken. This avoids any bias in the selection.
Regards, Sir48-Thyge
2017-01-28 2:12 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
turn
to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
not
for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
beset
the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
abroad,
out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
did
not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
and
the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
where
the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
largest, I
do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi Nathan,
You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what Wikimedia operates.
In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.
Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place, let us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is, nature, humans, fire, etc.
To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent, thus the risks are spread.
Romaine
Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan nawrich@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com javascript:;> wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe>
Actually some parties might bring EU to low standards of freedom of expression. For what concerns Wikimedia, I fear more lobbying about copyright related legislation or about net neutrality than USA turning into a dictatorship. I'm not afraid of a complete service disruption but instead of things getting more and more complicate in a globalized World being broken up. We rely upon a level of freedom to move people and data (mainly among the two shorelines of the Atlantic ocean) which has no precedents in human history. Offline backups -to renew on yearly basis- are not so expensive to be physically sent to chapters, or at least a certain number of chapters meeting some requirements (e.g. a physical location, some IT, etc.). It would instead be *hard* to rebuild an infrastructure almost from the scratch. What puzzles me is our ability to nullify impact of end of USA safe harbor or (possible) or, for example, Netherlands ceasing net neutrality (currently almost impossible) or similar kind of changes in any Country, which doesn't imply dictatorship but still will have a significantly impact over our operations.
Vito
2017-01-28 13:07 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
Hi Nathan,
You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what Wikimedia operates.
In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.
Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place, let us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is, nature, humans, fire, etc.
To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent, thus the risks are spread.
Romaine
Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan nawrich@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
turn
to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
not
for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
beset
the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com javascript:;> wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
abroad,
out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
did
not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
and
the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
where
the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
largest, I
do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
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On every continent there are likely risks and we should be aware of them.
Copyrights issues are also something to look out for.
In the Netherlands the telecom enforcement agency is pretty strict and active in enforcing net neutrality.
But yes, risks are spread over the world.
Where the servers are located I do not mind that much, but spread around the world seems to be required to spread the risk.
Romaine
Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
Actually some parties might bring EU to low standards of freedom of expression. For what concerns Wikimedia, I fear more lobbying about copyright related legislation or about net neutrality than USA turning into a dictatorship. I'm not afraid of a complete service disruption but instead of things getting more and more complicate in a globalized World being broken up. We rely upon a level of freedom to move people and data (mainly among the two shorelines of the Atlantic ocean) which has no precedents in human history. Offline backups -to renew on yearly basis- are not so expensive to be physically sent to chapters, or at least a certain number of chapters meeting some requirements (e.g. a physical location, some IT, etc.). It would instead be *hard* to rebuild an infrastructure almost from the scratch. What puzzles me is our ability to nullify impact of end of USA safe harbor or (possible) or, for example, Netherlands ceasing net neutrality (currently almost impossible) or similar kind of changes in any Country, which doesn't imply dictatorship but still will have a significantly impact over our operations.
Vito
2017-01-28 13:07 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com javascript:;>:
Hi Nathan,
You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what Wikimedia operates.
In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.
Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place,
let
us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is,
nature,
humans, fire, etc.
To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent, thus the risks are spread.
Romaine
Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com
javascript:;> het volgende
geschreven:
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
turn
to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric. Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders
is
quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
not
for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where
will
we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
beset
the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
javascript:;> wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet
as
result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
abroad,
out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
servers
in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive
organisation,
who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
did
not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
and
the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me
this
still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
where
the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
largest, I
do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they
would
actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover
the
knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement
should
think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your
right
and
should be protected.
Thank you.
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I would be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if the Foundation didn't have a plan of some sort for what to do if the legislative climate within the US became unacceptable, as a part of their assessment of their risk profile and as part of their risk management strategy. I remember coming up with a similar scenario many years ago as part of a risk management session for an organisation with a far narrower scope than the WMF.
Cheers, Craig
On 27 January 2017 at 13:33, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.
Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship. Even if it is only partially.
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Just to clarify; I want digests for revisions to make sue the whole delivery chain can be trusted. That is signed end-to-end, including the history (with time stamps).
And yes I trust no one, that includes myself.
As I know there should be a disaster recovery plan within US, but the question is to know if the risk assessment includes also the political issues and the option to move the data centers outside US in case of political risks.
It's not my competence, but in several points there is a description of a plan of disaster recovery.
The concerns in this case are more connected with the legal consequences connected with the placement of data centers in US.
At least for Switzerland, Commons is absolutely a *no competitive media repository* cause the application of very restrictive US law besides any change that can happen with an election and the consequent change of the the political scenario.
The real problem is to know how political aspects are considered in this risk assessment and what are the plans to mitigate or to resolve them because we know that we have to follow the US law, but this answer is becoming more and more unsatisfying.
Kind regards
On 27.01.2017 04:33, Romaine Wiki wrote:
This is just the first week of this president!
I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.
If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.
But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world. Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.
Thank you.
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration.
...
Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
Yes: there are several projects in the scientific community and universities in the US as well right now (I'm involved in some library efforts) to back up US government datasets, especially complex or dynamic datasets that are not easily scraped. It's unfortunate that this is ad-hoc emergency work. There is a lot of important data that is at risk of being taken offline (or simply not maintained), or has already been taken down; this is fragmented across US government agencies and pages and represents a great deal of the world's climate, oceanic, and other scientific data.
In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
Yes, I agree with your point about backups, but also: Internet Archive's work is crucial to our work in lots of ways, and one thing we can do is support and partner with them even more. (IA just gave a nice presentation about some of our collaborations and future work at the WikiConference North America: https://wikiconference.org/wiki/Submissions:2016/Internet_Archive_and_Wikipe...)
Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
As an American, I agree. I hope that being US-based does not mean people think that all US people or organizations agree with the current government. As an organization with strong and long-held values, I think Wikimedia must state our disagreement with policies of censorship and xenophobia (from the US administration, or from any government), which so profoundly differ from our own values of internationalism, cooperation, respect and accurate information.
A statement of clearly articulated organizational values is important for every organization, and especially important for US-based organizations now. This is distinct from (also) lobbying about the copyright and internet law issues that affect our work.
Organizations similar to us are also reacting to this weekend's news about immigration restrictions; for instance Mozilla just posted a note: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/01/28/us-immigration-ban/.
...
To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
The discussion of backing up data elsewhere is a good one. We should think about other specifics as well. I don't know if we have Wikimedians affected by the current US immigration rulings, but we must think ahead even if we do not. The new privacy orders are confusing and unclear, but certainly affect us. I'm sure there are other dimensions: let's discuss it and figure out the steps we should take as an organization to support our values and preemptively deal with government threats. How should we organize?
Phoebe
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